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MDH33
04-17-2008, 09:15 AM
I've never had to work on the power steering before and my 60 has started to have some symptoms and I wanted to ask for advice about diagnosing the problem before I start removing and replacing parts.

The power steering seems to be losing power intermittently. I have to fight the wheel sometimes but most of the time it feels ok. Almost all the time I am hearing a chirping coming from the steering column, weird.

Does this sound like the power steering pump is failing?? Not really sure where to start troubleshooting, but if it is the pump I would hate to have it fail and strand Kim somewhere.

MDH33
04-17-2008, 09:28 AM
Also, pump isn't leaking and fluid looks clean and full.

When a PS pump fails, do they lock up like smog pumps? or rupture and bleed fluid everywhere?

Red_Chili
04-17-2008, 10:10 AM
Mine just stopped working. Didn't lock up. Just instant Armstrong.

60wag
04-17-2008, 01:12 PM
You might try flushing the fluid and replacing with fresh. Look to see if there are any chunks in the old fluid. Sometimes the hoses start to breakdown on the inside and will shed particles of rubber. If a particle gets caugt in the relief valve in the pump, it can bypass the pump pressure. Also I found the level marked on the dipstick to be a bit low. If it was overfilled by a half inch or so, I got zero noise from the pump.

MDH33
04-17-2008, 01:30 PM
Thanks, I found a thread on MUD about cycling in fresh fluid and I'll give it a try. Interesting about the level, I'll try that too.

Lots to do this weekend between the 60, 40 and MOAB! :eek: :D

Rzeppa
04-18-2008, 04:59 PM
Certainly changing the fluid never hurt. My daughter was so convinced the the P/S pump in her Sebering was shot she bought a new one and we got together in my garage to replace the pump. Turned out the fluid was probably original (YUCK!!!) disgusting black sludge. After several flush/fills, the old pump was working fine, and continues to.

Chirping is almost always the belt on the pulley (assuming I am interpreting your description of the sound correctly). Often loose belt is all that causes chirping. Bearings (bushings?) in the pump going out can also cause the pulley to make the belt slip and cause chirping. One trick is to remove the belt and turn the pump by hand and feel for smooth rotation or not.

MDH33
04-19-2008, 10:13 AM
Definitely going to flush the fluid. The chirping is strange as it's not heard from under the hood, but inside the cab and sounds like it's coming from inside the steering column.

MDH33
05-17-2008, 03:43 PM
When a PS pump fails, do they lock up like smog pumps? or rupture and bleed fluid everywhere?

I found out the answer to this the hard way today. I had procrastinated with the fluid flush due to all the other issues I've had with this rig lately: brakes, burnt valve, rear pinion, etc... Pump died today.

I picked up a spare 60 axle from Mike today (Thanks Mike!) and on the way home the power steering pump stopped working and there is now power steering fluid splattered EVERYWHERE under the hood. :(

So now I have to do a power steering job as well as the rear end...

At least it's nice out today.:rolleyes:

Rzeppa
05-17-2008, 07:26 PM
That sucks that you got your diagnosis this way. OTOH, it could be worse. PS pumps on cruisers leak onto the smog pump which causes it to sieze. PS pumps on runners and mini trucks leak onto the alternator causing them to fail. Hopefully the damage is limited to the pump itself.

While I like Toyota PS, I'm kinda glad all my 70s era cruisers are stock down to steering by Armstrong - less stuff to wear out!

MDH33
05-18-2008, 11:03 AM
yep, the PS fluid is all over my new OEM smog pump. :( I am going to pull it out too and try to clean it out and see if any fluid made it's way in there. I Don't want to replace that thing again $$.

the list of parts I've replaced in the last 6 months keeps growing:

smog pump
starter
water pump
radiator
brakes
exhaust
belts
valves

adding new power steering pump this week plus the diff swap if I can get the long side axle out of the donor, which is stuck stuck stuck.

MDH33
05-18-2008, 11:04 AM
yep, the PS fluid is all over my new OEM smog pump. :( I am going to pull it out too and try to clean it out and see if any fluid made it's way in there. I Don't want to replace that thing again $$.

the list of parts I've replaced in the last year keeps growing:

front axle seals and bearings
smog pump
starter
water pump
radiator
brakes
exhaust
belts
valves

adding new power steering pump this week plus the diff swap if I can get the long side axle out of the donor, which is stuck stuck stuck.

Rzeppa
05-18-2008, 12:59 PM
plus the diff swap if I can get the long side axle out of the donor, which is stuck stuck stuck.

You did take the c-clip out, right?

MDH33
05-18-2008, 06:54 PM
You did take the c-clip out, right?

Yeah, it's bizarre. On my 60, after removing the C-clips and spider gears, the axle could be shoved out with one finger. On the donor axle, after pulling the C-clips and spider gears, the short axle slid out easy, but the long side went about an inch then sticks solid, won't turn or budge. I tried levering it and even tried standing the whole axle assembly on end and shooting PB down the inside of the axle housing to loosen it, but no luck.

I reassembled everything after doing a thorough inspection inside my diff and everything looks as it should. I still think this thumping noise is a brake issue, but I can't figure out what's causing it, and I'm more confident now that the pinion bearing/diff isn't going to fail. I don't think it's a result of the loose pinion and everything looks to be assembled correctly on the brakes. My last hypothesis is that the drums might be the culprit. They were turned, but it looks like the area that was turned is not as wide as the shoe contact area. This is resulting in a narrow band on the edge of the shoe to be worn deeper than the rest. How this would cause the loud knocking sound, I'm not sure. I might have to break down and buy a pair of new drums to test.

In the meantime, the pinion will probably be fine. After tightening the pinion nut, it's pretty solid and there is only a slight vibration.

Rzeppa
05-18-2008, 08:11 PM
Yeah, it's bizarre. On my 60, after removing the C-clips and spider gears, the axle could be shoved out with one finger. On the donor axle, after pulling the C-clips and spider gears, the short axle slid out easy, but the long side went about an inch then sticks solid, won't turn or budge. I tried levering it and even tried standing the whole axle assembly on end and shooting PB down the inside of the axle housing to loosen it, but no luck.

I reassembled everything after doing a thorough inspection inside my diff and everything looks as it should. I still think this thumping noise is a brake issue, but I can't figure out what's causing it, and I'm more confident now that the pinion bearing/diff isn't going to fail. I don't think it's a result of the loose pinion and everything looks to be assembled correctly on the brakes. My last hypothesis is that the drums might be the culprit. They were turned, but it looks like the area that was turned is not as wide as the shoe contact area. This is resulting in a narrow band on the edge of the shoe to be worn deeper than the rest. How this would cause the loud knocking sound, I'm not sure. I might have to break down and buy a pair of new drums to test.

In the meantime, the pinion will probably be fine. After tightening the pinion nut, it's pretty solid and there is only a slight vibration.

I have an idea on what might be going on with the doner - no idea if this is what's going on but I thought I'd toss it out there. My HZJ75 had a sheet metal shield shaped thing inside the axle tube. My guess was it was to redirect the 90wt during operation somehow. If your donor has such a thing, maybe the slot for the c-clip got caught on it somehow?

The ridge on the edge of your drum is normal, disks get those too where the pads don't go all the way to the edge. It's doubful the ridge itself is making any noises, but if it's that worn, it's certainly time for it to be turned and perhaps renewed.

It seems unlikely that a worn drum would cause a knocking noise though.

MDH33
05-18-2008, 09:21 PM
It seems unlikely that a worn drum would cause a knocking noise though.

I'm really stumped with this one.

It'd LOUD. It's definitely rotational and changes with speed and seems to be in the DS rear wheel. It's only when braking, and only while braking in a straight line. It stops if braking in a turn. Tim and Mike suggested that maybe it could be due to the thrust washers being worn, but I checked them while I had the diff apart and everything looked really good with almost no play in the axle shaft. :confused:

Rzeppa
05-18-2008, 10:36 PM
I'm really stumped with this one.

It'd LOUD. It's definitely rotational and changes with speed and seems to be in the DS rear wheel. It's only when braking, and only while braking in a straight line. It stops if braking in a turn. Tim and Mike suggested that maybe it could be due to the thrust washers being worn, but I checked them while I had the diff apart and everything looked really good with almost no play in the axle shaft. :confused:

I had scraping of the outside of the shoes on the inside of the drums on the rear of my 71. The root cause was worn carrier bearings, which a diff rebuild cured. It wasn't thumping or knocking, but they control exactly how far the axle sticks out. A warped drum might also account for your symptoms. I have several already-turned FJ40 drums you're welcome to, but I'm not sure they would fit a 60?

MDH33
05-19-2008, 10:32 AM
Thanks Jeff.

I just ordered an OEM PS pump ($ouch!$) and new lines as well as a pair of new drums. Should be here tomorrow.

nakman
05-19-2008, 10:57 AM
Martin, bummer about the PS pump man, yikes what an episode.

I think you're on the right track with the drums though, can you see any new wear areas in the drum or on the new pads? Your sound is definitely the two contacting each other, but not on the pads.. so if it's not the axle sticking out too far, then it must be some other kind of interference.

Like I said on Friday night your sound is identical to the sound my 40 made after I removed the Aussie locker.. when I had too much movement in the axle. The cure was :robbie: coming over and putting thicker spacers behind those outside gears (spider gears?) you know, those concave ones about the size of a bagel with the holes in them. Yeah I know, pretty tech.. :rolleyes:

MDH33
05-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Martin, bummer about the PS pump man, yikes what an episode.

I think you're on the right track with the drums though, can you see any new wear areas in the drum or on the new pads? Your sound is definitely the two contacting each other, but not on the pads.. so if it's not the axle sticking out too far, then it must be some other kind of interference.

Like I said on Friday night your sound is identical to the sound my 40 made after I removed the Aussie locker.. when I had too much movement in the axle. The cure was :robbie: coming over and putting thicker spacers behind those outside gears (spider gears?) you know, those concave ones about the size of a bagel with the holes in them. Yeah I know, pretty tech.. :rolleyes:


The new shoes on the DS rear have a groove on the outside edge from the drum eating into it. Almost looks like that drum was not turned far enough in to receive the full surface of the shoe. There are no other signs of wear on the drum or shoes. I'm hoping some new drums will be the ticket.

Your theory about the axle shifting made perfect sense, but after looking at the inside of the diff, the spacers/washers next to the gears that hold the axle splines looked good. If they were thicker, they would actually pull the axles further in. Right now the ends of the axle shafts are spaced perfectly for the pillow block and there is very little play when I try to move the axles in and out. Seems to be in pretty good shape.

The power steering pump was some serious bad news. :( Funny how we were just talking about that! What a mess. New OEM Pump and high pressure line to the tune of $580 . . . :banghead: At least I get the Rising Sun discount at Stevinson and they can have it here Tuesday with free shipping. :thumb: