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DaveInDenver
04-21-2008, 03:42 PM
What is the feeling on miles before swapping to synthetic engine oil? Is around 11,000 miles too early?

treerootCO
04-21-2008, 04:04 PM
After initial break-in period after the assembly lube has been flushed and the filter changed or some prefer to switch after the 2nd dino oil change has run 500 miles.

DaveInDenver
04-21-2008, 04:15 PM
What's this stuff about waiting like 20,000 miles before going to synthetic? No need to wait that long, then?

Uncle Ben
04-21-2008, 04:18 PM
What's this stuff about waiting like 20,000 miles before going to synthetic? No need to wait that long, then?


I would wait till 200k! Ohhhh wait I'm there...guess I'll wait till 250k! :lmao::lmao:

DaveInDenver
04-21-2008, 04:34 PM
I would wait till 200k! Ohhhh wait I'm there...guess I'll wait till 250k! :lmao::lmao:
Dunno, never had a brand new engine and thought synthetic was good for it. Figured having better oil in for a 3,500 mile highway trip in the middle of summer through the desert couldn't hurt, either.

Uncle Ben
04-21-2008, 05:21 PM
Dunno, never had a brand new engine and thought synthetic was good for it. Figured having better oil in for a 3,500 mile highway trip in the middle of summer through the desert couldn't hurt, either.

There is no doubt Syn oil is better than Dino IF you are not a frequent oil changer. Best thing for anything mechanical is routine maintainance! Having an oil that holds it's quality for 5-10k miles to me isn't nearly as important as having an oil that traps water and holds it's quality for 4k in case I don't get it changed at 3k like I usually do!

corsair23
04-21-2008, 05:58 PM
There is no doubt Syn oil is better than Dino IF you are not a frequent oil changer. Best thing for anything mechanical is routine maintainance! Having an oil that holds it's quality for 5-10k miles to me isn't nearly as important as having an oil that traps water and holds it's quality for 4k in case I don't get it changed at 3k like I usually do!

x2

I was running the Mobil 1 0W/40 syn in the LX then discovered the warranty required oil changes every 3 months/3K miles for me :(. 3 months for me is sometimes less than 2K miles so I was wasting $$ on oil that is designed to go 6K+ miles. I switched back to reg Dino on the LX and run the Mobil 1 in the :Princess:'s 80. Had an oil analysis done on both at the last oil change (I think I posted the analysis up for comment here) and the Mobil 1 had plenty of like left in it at 5K miles or so and the Dino had plenty of life left at 2K or so miles.

So, if you like to change the oil at 3 mo/3K mile intervals I say Dino. If you want to go longer I say synthetic. In either case I'd have an analysis done on whatever you go with after whatever interval you choose and see just how well your oil is holding up. Then adjust from there :cheers:

DaveInDenver
04-21-2008, 06:13 PM
Before the timing chain break, I was running Syntec at regular 3~4K intervals. So, yeah, I was probably over changing it. But we still had a car back then (I totaled the Civic last fall) and so the truck was getting around 6,000 miles a year on it. Since it's now my daily driver, I'm on pace to double that and have been on 3K intervals (following the 3 quick changes after initial break-in and at 200 and 1000 miles). I'm not interested in the extended life part of the synthetic, my analysis on the old engine recommended 4,500 miles on Syntec, but I suspect that #4 was blowing by more than the other 3 and so that fouled the oil prematurely. My thinking is that since the 22R only takes 4.5 quarts with the dinky filters that Toyota offers, spending the extra $12 (saying Syntec is usually about $3/qt more) or so 3 or 4 times a year isn't a big deal if the oil is better. I do definitely like synthetic in the winter, the engine cranks easier.

But that's all sort of a secondary question. When do you guys feel it's appropriate to switch from crude to synthetic, were one to decide to do so? Just saying, you know, if...

corsair23
04-21-2008, 06:19 PM
I do definitely like synthetic in the winter, the engine cranks easier.

x2 - of course I was running 15W/40 vs 0W/40 as well till I switched out to the Mobil 1 for the winter :hill:

But that's all sort of a secondary question. When do you guys feel it's appropriate to switch from crude to synthetic, were one to decide to do so? Just saying, you know, if...

Ah yes...back on topic :rolleyes:. For me it was 100K miles on both pretty much :). Honestly once you're past the break in period does it really matter :confused:. I've read about people worrying about switching to synthetic after 100K miles and getting leaks and burning more oil than normal but I've never read about concerns on switching early.

DaveInDenver
04-21-2008, 06:23 PM
For me it was 100K miles on both pretty much :). Honestly once you're past the break in period does it really matter :confused:. I've read about people worrying about switching to synthetic after 100K miles and getting leaks and burning more oil than normal but I've never read about concerns on switching early.
That echos my original experience, switched the old engine at 120K with zero issues. So the feeling is that approximately 10,000 miles probably wouldn't be too soon. I do suppose that it's really about as broken in as it's gonna get, eh?

Uncle Ben
04-21-2008, 06:24 PM
x2 - of course I was running 15W/40 vs 0W/40 as well till I switched out to the Mobil 1 for the winter :hill:



Ah yes...back on topic :rolleyes:. For me it was 100K miles on both pretty much :). Honestly once you're past the break in period does it really matter :confused:. I've read about people worrying about switching to synthetic after 100K miles and getting leaks and burning more oil than normal but I've never read about concerns on switching early.


As soon you have a good ring wear-in and engine temps normalize you can switch. Synth is too slick for break in but after thats done your golden!

Jacket
04-21-2008, 06:46 PM
Dave,

There's as many opinions on this question as there are on choosing the oil itself. Some engines come from the factory with synth, whereas others think a looonnngg break in is necessary. I'm with you - not right away, but early. I switched my Tacoma over at around 6000 miles - I ran two rounds of dyno, drove conservatively for the break-in period, then jumped over to synth and have stayed there.

I'd say you're in a perfect spot to make the change!

rover67
04-21-2008, 06:53 PM
just change it now. like jacket says lots of motors come with synthetic from the factory and lots of motors recommend it over anything else. I think the leaky seal problem is not as bad as it was in years previous.. formulations have changed. I have run synthetic in moors that leaked, didn't leak, and leaked a little lately and have not noticed a change in leakyness. of course the second i say that...

but yeah, i had the tundra since new and threw synthetic at the first oil change. at 130k miles it ran fine with good compression, no oil consumption, no leaks, blah blah blah. then i totalled it. it was basically new still. it even ran while it was upside down for a few minutes and that didn't hurt it noticably. swap it over as soon as the budget allows.

my .02

powderpig
04-21-2008, 07:05 PM
This is when I have done most of my syn oil swaps on rebuilt engines. This gives a real good break in period IMHO. later Robbie

Crash
04-24-2008, 09:39 PM
Amsoil claims that its products are perfectly good at helping an engine break in properly. Sorry, no link to substantiate that comment.

Red_Chili
04-25-2008, 09:05 AM
Based on Burt's experiences with rebuilt or new motors in minitrucks, prior to around 10K you can have issues with rings seating properly, and oil consumption, and crappy running. Sure, some motors come from the factory with synth, but they are built to do that. It does not hold across the board. Because Amsoil is a true (and good) synthetic, I would be hesitant to accept their claim for our motors.

I know you had some issues with rings seating, are they fully seated now? Good compression (~165-170)?

In other words, this supports Robbie and I agree with him (which is always a safe position to have!). :D

Uncle Ben
04-25-2008, 09:29 AM
Based on Burt's experiences with rebuilt or new motors in minitrucks, prior to around 10K you can have issues with rings seating properly, and oil consumption, and crappy running. Sure, some motors come from the factory with synth, but they are built to do that. It does not hold across the board. Because Amsoil is a true (and good) synthetic, I would be hesitant to accept their claim for our motors.

I know you had some issues with rings seating, are they fully seated now? Good compression (~165-170)?

In other words, this supports Robbie and I agree with him (which is always a safe position to have!). :D

What am I chopped liver? :rolleyes: :lmao:

nakman
04-25-2008, 09:40 AM
You must be on his "ignore list." :lmao:



I've found that synthetic brake fluid squirts out a leaky brake line just as fast as normal dot3.. and both containers roll under the clutch on descents equally well.
:bolt:

Red_Chili
04-25-2008, 09:43 AM
What am I chopped liver?

It's what happens when you become known as a speed freak.

8844





:lmao:

DaveInDenver
04-25-2008, 10:06 AM
speed freak
http://www.giftmonger.com/acatalog/speeding-granddads.jpg

Red_Chili
04-25-2008, 10:58 AM
:lmao: :lmao:

Uncle Ben
04-25-2008, 01:09 PM
http://www.giftmonger.com/acatalog/speeding-granddads.jpg



http://www.dinicartoons.com/forum/images/smilies/Happy/105.gif

Evrgrnmtnman
04-25-2008, 01:41 PM
I now have 3,300 miles on my rebuilt motor(22RE) in my 88 Pickup. It took till about 3,000 miles for the rings to seat themselves. However, I plan to wait till 5K to change over to Mobil 1 Syn. My two cents.....
Also, I fill mine to the full 5 qts. with a filter to bring the oil to the top line on the dipstick. I know that the books says 4.5, but that puts it about halfway between the lines on the dipstick.

DaveInDenver
04-25-2008, 02:21 PM
How did you determine your rings seated? Compression check? If so, what are you getting for a ratio?

I just did an oil change (regular GTX) this past weekend. Using the common Toyota filter (90915-YZZ-something, made in Thailand) it took a splash more than 4.5 quarts to hit the top of the hatching on the dip stick. That's the way it's always been for me. In the course of about 3500 miles I was down about 1/4 of the hatching, so maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of a quart.

Red_Chili
04-25-2008, 02:25 PM
You can try 'dry' and 'wet' compression checks and compare, I would think. The well seasoned 22REs I've done recently (93 truck, 88 truck) came in at >160psi (more like 170psi) dry and at operating temps. Do full throttle.

DaveInDenver
04-25-2008, 03:20 PM
You can try 'dry' and 'wet' compression checks and compare, I would think. The well seasoned 22REs I've done recently (93 truck, 88 truck) came in at >160psi (more like 170psi) dry and at operating temps. Do full throttle.
OK, I've never measured higher than 160 psi on 22R and 22R-E engines here in Denver (sample size of 4, 3 of which were admittedly at least 150K or older). A stock 22R-E should have a 9.3:1 ratio, which at sea level (14.7 psi) should result in 186 psi when compressed. This agrees with the FSM, which says 181 psi is the max pressure. My old engine was around 140 psi at last check, which was at least a year before the timing chain incident. That 1984 Dean and I bought-n-sold, Dean's 20R and now my new 22R-E are all have been in the 135 to 155 psi range.

When you correct for the typical ambient air pressure here at 5,280' AMSL (12.2 psi), that gives a compressed pressure of 155 psi with a 9.3:1 ratio. That's in the range of value I was getting when I stopped obsessing about it. My compression ratio is a bit lower than stock because of the enlarged combustion chambers and stock deck height and so I figured I should expect more like 151 psi with a ratio of 9.1:1 to 9.2:1. I have not done the calculations to find my exact ratio because I forgot to measure the piston-to-deck height before I put the head on. So I dunno my exact combustion chamber volume. But in any case, I figured with minimal carbon build-up I should expect 150 to 155 psi with regular weather. I do them at full operating temp (minus the time it takes for me to burn my arms pulling the plugs), WOT and plenty of cranks. The needle stops moving + 3 or 4 more cranks.

All of this also agrees with the rule of thumb about altitude compensation.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_Engine_Rebuild/mult_engine_rebuild-2.htm

Altitude Factor
500 0.987
1500 0.960
2500 0.933
3500 0.907
4500 0.880
5500 0.853
6500 0.826
7500 0.800
8500 0.773

181 psi * 0.853 = 154.4 psi

I was doing a wet test and there was some question as to how much oil to squirt in there (I'd heard to shoot for 2 tablespoons and that's hard to estimate with a leaky turkey baster). I was getting such wildly varying pressure, from just a slightly bump to 160 psi all the way up to 190 psi, that I just figured that I was too inconsistent with the oil in the chamber to be useful. With what I would call a heavy mist of oil my pressure only jumped around 5 psi and that I think is most useful in convincing me my rings are seated. My dry tests are even across all 4 cylinders, well within the 5% from highest to lowest (~5 psi).

Also, my compression checker is not a particular good one. It was $20 or something at Sears. There could be some accuracy inconsistencies between tools and so I'm happy if I'm within about 5% of my expected value of 151 psi, which would be 144 psi to 159 psi. So, yeah, I've thought about it a little...

Evrgrnmtnman
04-25-2008, 04:06 PM
Wow! That's alot of information there Dave, but good info.... After about 1500 miles on my new engine it started going through oil, total about 3.5 quarts in a span of about another 1,300 miles(so lets say 2,800miles on the engine) which made me nervous, but after speaking with my mechanic and reading more about rings seating I calmed down, and sure enough the engine quit going through oil. Now, let me clarify where the oil was going I have no idea. No leaks, no blumes of smoke, kind of mystery because nothing was visible to the naked eye. After many checks of the oil level for the past 500 miles it has held steady and has needed no more oil added, so I assume that the rings finally did get seated.

Jacket
04-27-2008, 09:54 AM
Not sure if you've got your supplies yet Dave, but I saw in this morning's paper that Checker is running a sale/rebate on Valvoline Synpower for .99 / qt. That's pretty tough to beat for fully synthetic!

DaveInDenver
04-27-2008, 10:37 AM
Wow, a buck a quart. That's even way cheaper than regular dino oil.

Jacket
04-27-2008, 08:56 PM
No kidding. I usually wait for deals like that, and then stock up. I've found Penn Platnium and Valvoline both run deals like that if you pay attention. For Mobil1, I just by the $22 jug from Walmart.

Evrgrnmtnman
04-28-2008, 09:22 AM
Might have to go with the Valvoline since that's what I'm using right now in my pickup(regular 10-30W oil). Any feedback as far as Valvoline Syn. VS. Mobil 1 Syn.????

Jacket
04-28-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm not sure about specific ingredient breakdown anymore, but generally speaking, it seems like the fully synthetic oils go through phases of popularity. For a while it was Mobil1, then the German Castrol, and lately it's been the Penn Platinum that gets all the good vibes. Valvoline gets good feedback on BITOG - just hasn't had its place at the top of the popularity polls yet.

I shop around for the best price between Mobil, Valvoline and Pennzoil (not big on the Castrol Syntec), and go with it. I've run several cycles of the 5W-30 Synpower in my Tacoma, and UOA's have come back very strong. And at .99 cents / qt, you get all the benefits of fully synthetic, but don't have to feel guilty at all about dumping it after 3, 4 , or 5K miles.

Jacket
04-28-2008, 01:53 PM
^ I guess its some of that. The whole group 3/group 4 thing is a guessing game, and it seems to be more myth than fact. The "internet facts" seem to confirm that Mobil1 and German Castrol are "mostly group IV", and the rest are either group III, or group III with some blended group IV.
But for me it's probably more environmental than anything; my Dad was a die hard Valvoline guy (and Amoco gas), so some of that probably stuck. I've used the GTX dyno before in my old Subaru, and I believe I'm running the Castrol high mileage in the 40 at the moment, so I'm not totally anti-Castrol.
But for the synthetics, Mobil1 (wife's car) and Synpower (the Taco) have been my preference. And like you, I try to pick a flavor and stick to it.

DaveInDenver
06-14-2008, 08:57 AM
Decision time. Need to refill my crankcase this morning. Just drained Castrol GTX 10W40. Sitting at about 197,500 on the clock, so that means I have about 10,500 miles on the rebuild.

Castrol GTX 10W30
Castrol GTX 10W40
Go synthetic already, you dork!

Castrol Syntec 10W30
Castrol Syntec 10W40
Mobil 1 10W30 (supposedly too thin, right?)
Mobil 1 10W40
Rotella (high zinc is good, right?)


Right now my thinking is along the lines of #2 because of the sustained high RPMs in the next 2 weeks and that Nevada and Utah are probably gonna be plenty warm. Not to mention there will be zero potential switchover or ring seating issues. Heck, nothing like 2 weeks of 2,500~3,500 RPM, wide throttle highway time to assure the engine is broken-in, eh? I will have no hesitation switching to synthetic after this trip!

Red_Chili
06-14-2008, 09:23 AM
Forget Castrol and Mobil1 (quality has decreased). The best oils (and synthetic is justified in your case I think) are Pennz Platinum, and Valvoline Synpower full synthetic. 10W30 or 5W30.

Per BITOG.

DaveInDenver
06-14-2008, 09:37 AM
Good to know about Mobil, everyone used to say that it was good.

Red_Chili
06-14-2008, 10:12 AM
It use to be, and it still mostly is... but not like it used to be per testing. I'd use it if it was dirt cheap or something, but next change will be Valvoline Synpower.

I just can't bring myself to use Pennzoil. :lmao:

I understand there are frequent BOGO offers on Synpower too, at Advance Auto. I saw Checkers had a rebate (I hate rebates, just give me the discount!) a while back.

http://www.dealighted.com/?search=BOGO+Valvoline+SynPower+synthetic+motor+oil+%40+Advance

http://www.dealgonzo.com/category/auto Kinda aged.

Uncle Ben
06-14-2008, 11:09 AM
I just can't bring myself to use Pennzoil. :lmao:


I almost replied that very answer but chose to keep my fingers quiet... :rolleyes:

I use Synpower in the boxes and Dino in the engine. I also change my oil every 3K which makes Dino shine as a choice!

DaveInDenver
06-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Running short on time today and had GTX 10W30 and 10W40 on hand. Went with 10W30, for better or worse (the owner's manual lists 10W30 and 10W40 over the same operating range, I dunno). Probably revisit the question after the trip since I'm pretty sold on synthetic at the moment. I put MT90 in the transmission and that has helped, it shifts noticeably better. I also filled the rear axle with standard Redline 75W90 and I'm surprised at how cool the housing is to the touch when I get home. I mean it's barely warmer than ambient. Running plain old Castrol Hypoy 75W90 in the transfer, though. Something of a spastic mix of lubrications, eh?

Red_Chili
06-14-2008, 04:26 PM
Something like the mix I'm running! :lmao:

DaveInDenver
08-18-2008, 06:44 PM
Got back my latest oil analysis.

Readings are good, looks like no coolant, fuel or moisture leakage past rings (this makes me content that the AFM 2-clicks rich is not washing the cylinder walls) and TBN was holding there with regular GTX.

According to the numbers my engine is consistent with other 22R engines at this change interval. The wear numbers are very low, single parts per million of important metals (copper, aluminum, iron, lead), so the engine is not wearing abnormally and the rings are not breaking in anymore. So I think I'm safe to switch over, if I decide to. From what it looks like I think the only thing I might gain with synthetic is the flash point increase, but since I don't have tons of insolubles I'm probably not burning much oil off and so that's not really a major problem.

BTW, this batch was the one I filled the engine with the week before Rubithon, so it's got a 2,700 miles of high RPM, high air temp highway pulls, a couple of days of hard and very dusty wheeling and a few weeks of equally hard commuting. So I'm pretty happy with that. You might notice that the silicon is 12 PPM and I run a stock Toyota air filter. Wonder what it would have looked like with a K&N?

FWIW, some of the things in the oil analysis to look at:
Boron - oil additives or anti-freeze additives
Zinc/phosphorous/calcium/magnesium/barium - oil additives
Iron – cylinders, liners, pistons, rings, valves, valve guides, bearings, gears, shafts, rust.
Aluminum – pistons, bearings, turbo chargers, pump vanes, thrust washers
Chromium - compression rings, anti-friction bearings, shafts, coolant additives
Copper – bearings, bushings, thrust washers, valve guides, injector shields, wet clutches
Lead – bearings, gear oil additives, fuel additives
Tin – bearings
Silver – anti friction bearings, silver solder, wrist pin bushings
Silicon – sand, dirt, anti foam oil additive, gasket sealant material, antifreeze additive

Jacket
08-18-2008, 07:56 PM
Looks like a great baseline!

So whatcha decide on for your flavor of oil? Seems like I remember Wally Mart had 5 qt jugs of Penn Platinum regularly priced around $20 last time I was there (Mobil1 a few bucks more). Not bad at all for PP; but it does require a trip into the great halls of WM

DaveInDenver
08-18-2008, 08:01 PM
Looks like a great baseline!

So whatcha decide on for your flavor of oil? Seems like I remember Wally Mart had 5 qt jugs of Penn Platinum regularly priced around $20 last time I was there (Mobil1 a few bucks more). Not bad at all for PP; but it does require a trip into the great halls of WM
See, that's the thing. I wasn't down much after the trip and the numbers don't indicate that I'm burning much off or getting much wear. I might not switch over, dunno. I'm even content with the oil filter (standard Toyota, not the fancy Japanese made ones, either). Aw, who'm I fooling? I'll probably go to Castrol Syntec 10W30. ;-)

Jacket
08-18-2008, 08:03 PM
If your gonna stick with 3000 mile intervals, then might as well stick to dyno. Or try longer intervals and go with the bling oil.

DaveInDenver
08-18-2008, 08:09 PM
If your gonna stick with 3000 mile intervals, then might as well stick to dyno. Or try longer intervals and go with the bling oil.
In all honesty, I think in the summer that would be the case. But I do like the way synthetic flows faster and builds pressure in the cold weather. I do think that makes a difference in engine life.

Red_Chili
08-19-2008, 12:10 AM
And the shear strength makes a difference in summer.

Got a supply of Valvoline Synpower waiting to go in when the motor breaks in. And running Synpower 20W50 in the scoot.

With extended OCIs the cost is about the same really.