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Rezarf
05-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Hello fine friends! :thumb:

At our NSTBC breakfast this morning, I started to realize that I haven't even been in an auto locked truck... lock-right, aussie locker etc. and I probaly shouldn't rule them out before dropping the coin on an ARB locker.

I have a few questions to ask:

1. Anyone in Louisville/Boulder/Broomfield got one of these in a 40 that I could take for a test drive?

2. Does anyone in the club have one on a shelf somewhere they might be willing to sell? PM me with what you have and what you want for it. :cheers:

3. Will an auto locker jack with my truck when it comes time to start pulling my little trailer around the hills, or town for that matter?

Thanks! I would like to lock up the rear sometime this summer.

jjhancock
05-09-2008, 12:25 PM
You can come by and take mine for a test drive anytime, and I'm in South Boulder :)

MDH33
05-09-2008, 12:45 PM
I have an Aussie locker in my 40. You're welcome to drive it any time.

You get used to the idiosyncrasies of the auto locker pretty quickly. I don't even notice it when driving on roads at speed. At slower speeds, you need to get used to clutching through turns and the locker will make a ratchet sound in corners. I wouldn't think it would effect pulling a trailer. My only complaint is that they are horrible on icy roads but I usually drive my unlocked 60 in the winter anyway. :thumb:

nakman
05-09-2008, 12:52 PM
3. Yes.


What trail do you want to run where you think you need a locker?

Tanglefoot
05-09-2008, 12:58 PM
I have a lock-right in the '85 4Runner. I'm 20 minutes east of Louisville but Mom and Dad live there so I'm there quite a bit. I'll probably be there most of this weekend. You can drive it if you want.

I usually forget the locker's there. I have heavier oil in the diff so you can't even hear it click around corners. You just feel a slight sway to the left/right when you shift gears. When you're getting used to it it starts bucking around a corner sometimes...just push in the clutch and it stops. After a week or two, you automatically adjust your driving and it becomes seamless, without even thinking about it. People say they're bad on icy roads but I've never had a problem.
It's been an asset for me in every situation.

I've done some towing...from the former off-road tent trailer, to a good size flatbed to a 2200 lb runabout boat....The locker's never been a problem.

Eric

MDH33
05-09-2008, 01:04 PM
From what I've heard, there's a huge difference between how a short vs long wheel base rig handles with an autolocker.

FJBen
05-09-2008, 01:46 PM
From what I've heard, there's a huge difference between how a short vs long wheel base rig handles with an autolocker.

X2 :thumb:

ARB :D

Red_Chili
05-09-2008, 02:00 PM
The advantage of ARB is (besides winter driving) you only engage the locker when you really need to. It makes you a better driver.

Lock-rites are a bit hard on the carrier too, and are a failure point; I would suggest an Aussie or Detroit Locker if you want to go that route.

Hulk
05-09-2008, 02:15 PM
I have a Lock-Right in my 40 which I've used since 2001. It's the locker that the "Aussie Locker" copied shamelessly from.

Never had a problem in the winter.

It will buck a little when you are going really slow through a curve, but this hardly ever happens. You quickly learn how to drive with the locker and it becomes automatic.

Is an ARB nicer? Probably. Will a Lock-Right serve your purpose? Yes.

Link:
http://www.richmondgear.com/powertrax/lockright.html

Rezarf
05-09-2008, 03:43 PM
Yeah, I haven't really "needed" a locker yet, but as we continue to play on the rocks, I can see it being a good mod for how we are using the rig.

Drew

AxleIke
05-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Another advantage of selectable is less wear and tear on the whole axle assy. By only being engaged when you need it, you cut down on the possibility of breakage more.

On the other hand, the 6-700 dollar difference will buy you ALOT of spare parts

Rezarf
05-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Another advantage of selectable is less wear and tear on the whole axle assy. By only being engaged when you need it, you cut down on the possibility of breakage more.

On the other hand, the 6-700 dollar difference will buy you ALOT of spare parts

Yup, that is a full cage, sliders, and seat harness... this is what is driving my decision now. :thumb:

MDH33
05-09-2008, 04:25 PM
I don't think you will regret an auto locker, Drew. The extra traction is a huge plus, they are easy to install, cheap, and if you get funds later for an ARB, they are easy to remove.

subzali
05-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Lockright in the back of my 40 for two summers and winters now. My :twocents:

Cheap, easy, your driving WILL adjust, and though it was nice to drive home with an open diff after I broke my pinion last fall and I even mentioned that to my buddy, BUT for the price it's hard to beat. Not to mention you can pick one up for $200 now, use it for a while, and then sell it for the same price later on down the road.

I have towed my Hobie 14 several times; maybe about 300-400# total trailer weight, about 60-80# tongue weight, 0 (NO) problems. None. Didn't make a difference, except my engine had a harder time pulling up hills. :D

Winter - my classic story - two winters ago driving a slick windy road in 4x4 and hammering the corners TRYING to make it break traction. Once I got to where I was going I realized my hubs weren't locked :doh:. Point is I have not noticed any more tendency for it to kick out and feel very confident on slick roads - EVERY time if it does start to kick as soon as I let off the gas it rights itself without overcorrecting. I think a lot of that is due to the MT/Rs. Basically I think people get hyped up about its quirks, but I still maintain it's the best $200 I've spent for offroad-ability on my truck. Well, maybe next to replacing a bald Sears special with a new MT/R :D

Try it, you can't lose, and you can always go to the (MUCH more) work of installing a selectable later. I'm still planning on it, but for now I'm good.

/soapbox

Not quite - a 40 is fairly light and I don't think it really sees that much stress, especially considering the engine that's pushing it around.

Also the off-road ride will become smoother because you don't have to pedal-mash your way through things to counteract your loss of momentum due to tire spin. Huge + for the one riding in the passenger seat :thumb:

Shark Bait
05-09-2008, 05:16 PM
I've had Lock Rights in both the front rear of a 40 and my 55 and really wouldn't be too concerned about it's affect on the vehicle driveability. The only slightly annoying thing is the loud noises you get now and then when the thing unloads on you. And when you start off on pavement, sometimes you get a little "nudge" to one side in the rear. But it really isn't that bad. They are much cheaper than ARBs. :D

rover67
05-09-2008, 06:15 PM
hey Drew,

I have an aussie in my 60. sure it's not a 40, but am 2 miles away from you....

i've never driven an arb truck, but i can imagine it'd be nice to have an open rear again -sometimes. When it was slick out (like ice sheet I-70) this winter it was kinda hairy.. unless you like the feeling (if ya know what i mean), but in packed snow it was not bad. For the money, I love it.... the learning curve is small.

haven't towed yet.. but i bet it's just fine.

you around this weekend? if so i can swing by and toss ya the keys for a few hours so you can really try it out.

rover67
05-09-2008, 06:19 PM
oh and i installed it myself in about an hour.... drain pan hits the floor... drying my hands with a paper towel an hour later.

farnhamstj
05-10-2008, 09:32 AM
Drew, you can ..almost... buy a locked 80 for the price of installing ARB's front and rear in your 40. I ran a lock-right for a couple years in my 40. No issues, don't romp on the gas in the snow while going around a roundabout. Then again, I don't ever recall that being a good idea in a 40. I would Aussie the rear and forget about it. (then sell it for a uzj100 in a couple years when you have kids)

Uncle Ben
05-10-2008, 09:47 AM
Drew, you can ..almost... buy a locked 80 for the price of installing ARB's front and rear in your 40. I ran a lock-right for a couple years in my 40. No issues, don't romp on the gas in the snow while going around a roundabout. Then again, I don't ever recall that being a good idea in a 40. I would Aussie the rear and forget about it. (then sell it for a uzj100 in a couple years when you have kids)

Buy Lock Rite! Support the ones who invented it and not the ones who pirate the design! :blah:

Chris
05-10-2008, 10:20 AM
The advantage of ARB is (besides winter driving) you only engage the locker when you really need to. It makes you a better driver.

Lock-rites are a bit hard on the carrier too, and are a failure point; I would suggest an Aussie or Detroit Locker if you want to go that route.

If you can afford an ARB go for it. I couldn't and went with Lock-Rite in the 62. Great mod for the price.

As far as being hard on the carrier and being a weak point I'm not sure I agree with Red Chili. I talked with a guy in Moab who has blown up a diff and re-used his Lock-Rite because it survived just fine. (Second hand testimonial)

Rezarf
05-10-2008, 10:36 AM
Lock-right has a new design that eliminates the ratcheting sound and is suposedly quieter. Anyone have experience with the new version?

Drew

Uncle Ben
05-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Lock-right has a new design that eliminates the ratcheting sound and is suposedly quieter. Anyone have experience with the new version?

Drew

I wore out 2 "No Slip" in my 62. I went back to a LR instead and later put a Real Detroit in the rear. I put the ARB in later as I was twisting axle shafts due to pulling heavy trailers big sticky tires and 300 hp under the hood. I personally will never run a "No Slip" again. Huge praise for Powertrax customer service! They listen and back up what they sell!

Note: Ignore the "Auto Lockers (in the rear) are death machines in winter" whiners! They either never really done it or couldn't control the right foot!

AxleIke
05-10-2008, 11:42 AM
Many, many people do very well in all seasons in everything from long wheel base domestic rigs to jeeps and everything in between with auto lockers.

You can get used to driving it.

Its personal preference. I drove several trucks before my purchase. All 4 runners or pick ups, since that is what I have. My personal choice was that I couldn't stand them in the slightest, and vowed never to own one. I personally liked the lock right the least. The bucking and ratcheting both annoyed and scared me. DO NOT try a full power u-turn. Its not pretty.

What bothered me was the thought of the unexpected driving, not the everyday stuff. I felt that I could adapt my driving style to handle the every day, run of the mill, driving. But then I thought about evasive maneuvers and emergency situations. I felt that I didn't have the driving skill to adapt in a panic. I'd handled situations like that before, but open/open. I was concerned about something coming up on the highway, making a maneuver that I thought I could handle, and then the locker engaging and messing up my day.

However, since the purchase of my lockers, I've never come into a situation like that. So perhaps it was just paranoia.

I advocate for ARB's because I love mine, and like to see them have the business. Their customer service is off the charts, their products have been to me, bomb proof, and I never have to worry about any different behavior. Full open when I want it, full spool when I want it.

Some second hand testimonial about other drivers. Should you decide to get the auto locker, for the first few snows of the season, I would take Stacy out and have her drive it both in an empty parking lot and on the icy streets.

A good buddy of mine let a friend drive his rig in the snow. The friend had never driven a locked truck before, and within 2 miles, put the truck off of an embankment. No injury, but at some point, Stacy may have to drive the cruiser in bad weather. Better safe than sorry.

In the end, I will again suggest that you do the following:

-Drive a couple of rigs. Several here have offered. I think you'll find the auto lockers are not as bad as internet hoopla leads us to believe.

-Once you have some experience with it, base the decision on your personal preference, and your wallet. Lots of opinions out there, in the end, yours is the only one that matters.

I'll be happy to lend a hand installing whatever you get.

rover67
05-10-2008, 12:34 PM
i recommend driving one too. take mine for a day... you and stacy can drive it all ya want.

Rezarf
05-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Why do I need a locker you ask?... :D (compliments of Hulk)

rover67
05-10-2008, 05:17 PM
yeah, i like that shot!

MDH33
05-10-2008, 07:27 PM
Buy Lock Rite! Support the ones who invented it and not the ones who pirate the design! :blah:

So, following this train of thought, should I then be driving a *eep instead of a 40?? :rolleyes: :eek: :confuse2: ;)

wesintl
05-10-2008, 07:34 PM
I've never had a problem with my lock rite. It hardly ever makes noise. Proper set up is the key as well as tire pressure on each side. Slight adjustment to driving is all. In 4wd in the snow can hardly even tell it's there. 2wd is a different story and more fun ;)

for what you can pick up a used one for around here or off mud (150) buy one slap it in. if you like it keep on truckin. If you don't pull it and sell it for what you paid for it. no harm no foul.

Every time i'm wheelin people ask me if i'm open in the rear. They can't tell watching or riding. I've had mine for some 8 years. In a 60, then my 40, now my 70.

MDH33
05-10-2008, 07:34 PM
Note: Ignore the "Auto Lockers (in the rear) are death machines in winter" whiners! They either never really done it or couldn't control the right foot!

If you're referring to me, I'm not whining about driving it in winter. In fact I drove my 40 about 4 days a week this winter due to my wife needing the 60 a lot and I'm "livin' in the hills" now on twisty, hilly, snow packed roads. I never said it was sketchy on snow or even on slick roads. I did say, and I will say again that it is down right squirrelly on ICE compared to my open 60. Swampers and manual steering don't help on ice either though.

Uncle Ben
05-10-2008, 10:27 PM
If you're referring to me, I'm not whining about driving it in winter. In fact I drove my 40 about 4 days a week this winter due to my wife needing the 60 a lot and I'm "livin' in the hills" now on twisty, hilly, snow packed roads. I never said it was sketchy on snow or even on slick roads. I did say, and I will say again that it is down right squirrelly on ICE compared to my open 60. Swampers and manual steering don't help on ice either though.

Nope.....not talking about you! I'm just ranting about all the arm chair wheelers that chime in every time the auto locker vrs selectable locker argument shows up. I get sick of hearing from so many "experts" with so little actual experience! :rant:

Depending on the circumstance I will almost always rant in favor of an auto locker over selectable. 4 wheeling has a lot in common with the agricultural world and the "KISS" theory will more often than not get the job done with the least amount of downtime!

subzali
05-10-2008, 10:31 PM
I figured Drew would run up against a situation like that sooner or later...even with all his good intentions of having an expedition-ish rig ;)

I've done full-power u-turns in my 40; you just gotta know when to power and when to stop, that's all ;)

Evasive maneuvers - 40 can't do that anyway...(I'm kinda kidding). For real though, I've only noticed strange behavior from my lockright when I'm under power. If I let off the gas then it pretty much returns to normal. I guess honestly I never thought much about evasive maneuvers; maybe I'm able to stomach that risk a little easier than some...

AxleIke
05-10-2008, 10:57 PM
Glad your stomach is so strong. Guess I have some crunches to do. Or not.

Looks like the consensus is a lock-right.

The extra cash on hand will come in handy for your other projects.

Red_Chili
05-11-2008, 12:52 AM
Ask Squishy what a lock right felt like on Red Elephant Hill in the winter. And how he needed my strap.
Selectables all the way. YMMV.

Uncle Ben
05-11-2008, 09:04 AM
Ask Squishy what a lock right felt like on Red Elephant Hill in the winter. And how he needed my strap.
Selectables all the way. YMMV.

Bzzzzzzt! "It's a mini-truck thing....we don't understand!" :eek::lmao::lmao::lmao::bolt:

nakman
05-11-2008, 01:36 PM
Can't argue with keeping it simple, and keeping cost down. But it comes down to how you plan on using your truck, and if you're willing to accept some of the downsides of the auto locker in exchange for the plus of better traction while wheeling. You just ran Kane Creek which is rated 4 out of 5, and you did it open. So what if you spun a little.

On snow runs, there will always be someone around with a strap, and honestly if you find yourself on a snowy shelf road you'll be glad you're open- especially if you have to back up, going uphill- much better to spin just one wheel than spin them both and slip sideways.

So the equation is to spin a little less 1 or 2 days per year in exchange for learning a new driving style on the street. I did it both ways, albeit for a short period of time, but I preferred being open in back hands down. The Aussie I pulled ended up in Treeroot's hands, not sure if it's on his shelf somewhere or in his dad's 40 or what, might not hurt to ask him though. It's a cheap enough mod even if you go new (compared to ARB's), not worth getting too worked up over, you may as as well try it then decide.

Is it possible to swap in a 4Runner/Taco third? Or would you have to swap the whole axle? I have no idea if an e-locker is even a viable option, but it's at least worth ruling out.

Rzeppa
05-11-2008, 04:05 PM
The Lock Right was the first "real" mod I did on my 71, and man oh man, it was the single best and most cost effective mod there is IMHO. I had one in my 1997 HZJ75 since 2000 so I already knew how they worked and how to install them. I ran that 71 for several years with 31s, stock 3-speed and stock suspension, and the difference in capability on the trail and in snow is just phenomenal.

I found that in a shorty 40 it's a little more "twitchy" when getting on and off the throttle around corners (compared to open, or the long, heavy HZJ75), but I got used to it in a very short time. Banging and all that is when they're not set up right, mine just ratchets quietly when I park in a lot. I have no problems whatsoever in snow and ice, and would say that driveability is much improved in snow and not adversely affected on ice. Many instances I used to have to use 4WD I don't even bother any more.

I have subsequently added a mild lift and 33s, and then added a 4-speed, but the Lock Right has definitely made the most difference in trail capability. Last year, I did Hell's Revenge in 2 wheel drive.

I know from working on them and from other's accounts that Detroits are much more robust and stronger. And they cost more than twice as much and are a much more involved installation.

And I'll certainly concede the advantages of a selectable locker like an ARB or stock Toyota electric (which are both stronger than a Lock Right), but as for bang for the buck, I really like the Lock Right. Aussies look the same and by all acounts work the same, I just have no first hand experience with them.

Mendocino
05-11-2008, 05:03 PM
I have ARBs front and rear in my 40 and am very happy with them. I have driven full size trucks with Detroit Lockers and prefere the selectability of the ARB.

My .2

Red_Chili
05-11-2008, 05:06 PM
I know from working on them and from other's accounts that Detroits are much more robust and stronger. And they cost more than twice as much and are a much more involved installation.

Bingo.

Uncle Ben
05-11-2008, 05:53 PM
Bingo.

Bingo x2 :rolleyes: Detroits are beasts! They do not fail but they will let weaker parts show up! Detroits are also better mannered on the pavement but they also lock up harder under mild loads. If your doing a Detroit then I would assume your considering a rig to be more trail, less street, as the price isn't that much less than an ARB. My 40 will always be Detroited in the rear but I'm getting softer to the ARB in the front idea as sometimes rear wheel drive isn't enough when turning and auto lockers under load in the front on a sharp turn just aren't very maneuverable. Wild Rice has been F&R Detroits for a long time! I have done most of the toughest trails in the US with that setup and love it!

Red_Chili
05-12-2008, 07:35 AM
FWIW, for all the supposed problems and issues with ARBs, I have had few. I wore out a set of O-rings (old design). They held, but I was chasing a bit of gear oil PHLOOF when releasing, so that may have been just me being compulsive. Oh yeah, and I left too much slack in a blue line and it managed to touch hot exhaust. Fixed easily in the field.

The solenoids blow gear oil mist, but not extremely so. ARB now has right angle fittings that screw into the solenoids that accept blue line for a nice catch system. Keeps the engine bay clean.

Another consideration not addressed: ARB is perhaps the most robust carrier (heart of the diff) you can buy. It will not flex, and will not break spiders ('pinion' gears to the factory). Build a diff around an ARB (even minitruck 4-cyl 2-'pinion' diffs), get a good pattern, torque the carrier bearings to 80-100 ft. lbs., and forget it for the life of the truck. It won't break.

To top it off, ARB tech support is the best in the business. For being a democratic socialist nation, Australia has managed to produce enough workers with a major work ethic to populate ARB, that is a fact.

wesintl
05-12-2008, 09:11 AM
You just ran Kane Creek which is rated 4 out of 5, and you did it open. So what if you spun a little.

we should be treading lightly. Pretty soon that line on the left won't be passable without a locker either.

Rezarf
05-12-2008, 09:49 AM
we should be treading lightly. Pretty soon that line on the left won't be passable without a locker either.

This just seems like a good next step for how we have been playing. There is a certain satisfaction of getting over things open/open, but the liberal use of the skinny pedal will result in less than desireable breakage at some point.

Drew:thumb:

Rzeppa
05-12-2008, 10:55 PM
FWIW, for all the supposed problems and issues with ARBs, I have had few.

In my first hand observation, I have seen a number of issues with ARBs, and every single one of them was related to air, none to mechanical breakage.

Red_Chili
05-13-2008, 06:36 AM
Air, especially the mounting of the compressor, and the routing of the air lines, are the biggest variables. Easy to get right though.

Uncle Ben
05-13-2008, 06:50 AM
Air, especially the mounting of the compressor, and the routing of the air lines, are the biggest variables. Easy to get right though.

I've seen countless compressor failures, solenoid issues and airline mishaps, but I have also seen many o-ring failures. The ironic thing about most failing ARB issues is how many times you hear "I've never had a problem with mine...except the time...." :rolleyes: The carriers are bullet proof! :rolleyes: Great concept but pressurized air is not the answer, IMNSHO... :rolleyes:

AxleIke
05-13-2008, 07:57 AM
Everyone can justify their own purchases.

auto locker guys will tell you how much money they saved and how good they are on the street, and how dumb it is to spend money on a selectable. Selectable guys will tell you how worth it the money they spent was, and how awesome they are, and how terrible auto lockers are.

As far as the ARB stuff goes:

ARB failure is only due to install plain and simple. Proper install = years of excellent use and no failure. Improper mounting of the solenoids will cause them to collect dirt and fail. Improper routing of the airline will allow it to hit hot things, and leak. Improper install on the oring clip or the wrong type of oil, or chipped gears will get the o rings.

I disagree with the "except this one time" statement. I know several guys running ARB's and only one has had issue, due to the fact that he was running the wrong type of oil. Everyone else has had zero issues, myself included. Not except this one time issues, but zero issues.

Uncle Ben
05-13-2008, 08:00 AM
Interestingly I was surfing Mud this morning (getting rarer and rarer) and found this post......

http://forum.ih8mud.com/3311653-post3.html

Red_Chili
05-13-2008, 09:06 AM
With apologies to Paul Harvey, the "rest of the story"
Don't worry too much guys. This air locker had been in my FJ40 for about 14 years. It had seen a lot of abuse. It was my daily driver as well as weekend wheeler. I run a 2F /sm420 along with a Toybox down to 37" IROKs. That locker saw a lot of torque and a lot of miles. I think I put in around 170,000 miles before it gave up on the way to work one morning.

Everyone can justify their own purchases.

auto locker guys will tell you how much money they saved and how good they are on the street, and how dumb it is to spend money on a selectable. Selectable guys will tell you how worth it the money they spent was, and how awesome they are, and how terrible auto lockers are.

As far as the ARB stuff goes:

ARB failure is only due to install plain and simple. Proper install = years of excellent use and no failure. Improper mounting of the solenoids will cause them to collect dirt and fail. Improper routing of the airline will allow it to hit hot things, and leak. Improper install on the oring clip or the wrong type of oil, or chipped gears will get the o rings.

I disagree with the "except this one time" statement. I know several guys running ARB's and only one has had issue, due to the fact that he was running the wrong type of oil. Everyone else has had zero issues, myself included. Not except this one time issues, but zero issues.
Bingo.

Decide what you want and how you want to wheel. I have driven Lockrites and installed one in my son's truck, then yanked it - he hated it, and so did I. YMMV. It sits on a shelf. I would happily give it to a friend of mine who can in no way afford any locker, but he would have to live with the quirks in his hunting truck. He'd probably be just fine.

I prefer selectables, as it is important to me to have the 'open' option, and my choices are air and electric. I use both. I like the function of air better in the field - faster engagement and disengagement - but use electric and will put an electric in my DD just cuz I have one.

They all have their pluses and minuses, even open does. We subject equipment to severe service, no other way to say it.

Everything breaks, some sooner than others. For every broken ARB (and this is the first I've seen) I would conservatively say there are ten or more of other options.
All of them are the minority however.

Use what fits your style.