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subzali
06-22-2008, 10:10 PM
I replaced my timing chain last year. Now I fear that my head gasket has gone south and needs to be replaced. I was told this could happen and I should do it all at once, but I didn't have the time or money then to do it all. Now I don't have the time/willingness but I have the money to pay someone else to do it. Especially after reading THIS THREAD (http://www.yotatech.com/f116/22re-head-gasket-timing-chain-replacement-pics-88722/) am I convinced that I don't want to do this myself. I just want to get a quote from someone, pay them to do it, drop it off and pick it up. Done. Easy. Doing the head gasket on the 40 is one thing, but the 22R-E is a different story that I don't want to deal with.

So having said that, post up some reputable shops that you would feel comfortable sending your 22R-E to to get the work done and not end up costing a fortune.

The reason I think it's on its way out is because I am losing coolant slowly. Like the overflow bottle will be empty in about a week of DD service. It looks to me like there is white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe, very faint, but there. I don't smell the sweetness of coolant though, no leaks that I can see in my engine bay, no overheating problems. I'm afraid that if I have a small hole then my head is getting eroded with combustion gases and that's going to cost a lot more time and $$.

Shark Bait
06-22-2008, 10:21 PM
Robbie would do it. He won't be back from Nevada for a week or so.

Red_Chili
06-22-2008, 10:31 PM
Squishy will do it too. Your choice.

Evrgrnmtnman
06-22-2008, 10:35 PM
Jesse, @
www.atlr.net

subzali
06-22-2008, 10:38 PM
I talked with Squishy! - timing may not work out right now.

We'll see what the timeline looks like, but I would feel with sooner rather than later. Evrgrnmtnman - why would you trust Jesse? I don't know him. I know Robbie and Squishy!

Shark Bait
06-22-2008, 10:47 PM
Joe Calleja at CTS would do it. Also maybe Ben Ashcraft.

Evrgrnmtnman
06-23-2008, 08:06 AM
Well, let' see. .....He put a 22RE in my 88, 2 heads, no leaks, great customer service, he specializes in 22RE's, does this day in and day out. He got a shop right by the Fairgrounds....and other people in Rising Sun have used him. I think Carey just had a engine installed by Jesse. .......other than that, can't think of anything. Oh, great guy to work with.
Oh yea, and his rates are reasonable!

Rzeppa
06-23-2008, 07:28 PM
Joe Calleja at CTS would do it.

X2 on Joe Calleja at CTS. I know of no one on the face of the earth who knows more about 22REs than he does. He did my daughter's because I didn't have time (was a week before a Cruise Moab), and fixed a bunch of stuff "while he was in there" and didn't charge extra for it.

subzali
06-24-2008, 06:22 PM
I decided being able to work on your own vehicle can be a curse. I heard the price to have someone else do it, and though it was about what I expected I hoped by some stroke of magic that it wouldn't be that much. How do people afford to own cars? I guess they never make it to 200,000 miles where this service stuff comes up. So I stopped by Burt and picked up an OEM gasket etc. and I'm going to get an engnbldr kit and maybe this Friday tear into it, have it back together by mid-next week. sigh

Stay tuned for pictures etc.

Rzeppa
06-24-2008, 09:21 PM
I decided being able to work on your own vehicle can be a curse. I heard the price to have someone else do it, and though it was about what I expected I hoped by some stroke of magic that it wouldn't be that much. How do people afford to own cars? I guess they never make it to 200,000 miles where this service stuff comes up. So I stopped by Burt and picked up an OEM gasket etc. and I'm going to get an engnbldr kit and maybe this Friday tear into it, have it back together by mid-next week. sigh

Stay tuned for pictures etc.

LOL!

When I was young and couldn't afford to put my truck in a shop, I did my own work. Then when I got older and made more money and (thought) that my time was worth more than theirs and could afford it, I used shops. After many episodes of shop repairs not being up to snuff, I pulled it back in for quality control, and the satisfaction of doing myself. Priceless.

1976 FJ40: 272k miles
1971 FJ40: 184k miles
1978 FJ45: 194k kms (about 120k miles)

Red_Chili
06-25-2008, 08:42 AM
How do people afford to own cars? I guess they never make it to 200,000 miles where this service stuff comes up.
I have asked myself the same question. People will spend outrageous amounts of money on service... or in fear of doing so, will spend outrageous amounts of money on a new vehicle only to have thousands vaporize ten minutes into their first drive.

I will most likely never own a new vehicle again. Even if I can afford one. Maybe an electric, because I doubt those will be available used.

Like an Aussie acquaintance told me once:
A man made it, a man can fix it.
Or an Ige can fix it. :hill:

You'll be fine. Pay close attention to the head and deck surfaces. Gunn can skim .005-.010 off the head without disassembly, if needed. There are quite a few tips and tricks on the web, if they don't go against the FSM procedure, they are probably good.

ATLR
06-25-2008, 12:09 PM
Subzali ,the biggest thing people do wrong with this job is, they take both manifolds off to get the head off. You don't have to! You can pull the head and both manifolds at the same time. It is also easyer to split it on the bench. The only really special tool I use in this job is a 8 inch long 6mm allen. This is so that I can take off the intake as on unit. The allen is next to #1 injector. If you have any questions please feel free to call me. My cell is on my web site. YOU CAN DO IT!!!:thumb:

subzali
06-25-2008, 01:29 PM
Well my truck hasn't used any coolant in the past two days...but I'm on the way anyway so I might as well go through with it.

Fuel filter replacement at the same time - OEM?

nakman
06-25-2008, 01:42 PM
My suggestion is talk to Dave, as he just did this http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=2963

but they're taking the slow way back from Rubithon, so I don't think he's around yet..

Red_Chili
06-25-2008, 01:53 PM
Fuel filter replacement at the same time - OEM?
Absolutely. Extremely hard to get to... UNTIL you remove the head. OEM with a TLCA discount, I would.

subzali
06-27-2008, 12:44 AM
Okay, got all the wiring and fuel lines disconnected etc.

BUT I CAN'T GET TWO OF THE HEAD BOLTS OUT!!! I figured I'd better call it a night before I break something, #5 and #8 on the loosening order are WAY too tight! I afraid of rounding my 6 point impact socket or breaking my breaker bar :eek:

I might take an impact wrench to it in the morning...

Help?

Myredyota
06-27-2008, 03:46 AM
Call Jesse. He offered, take him up on it. 5 minutes on the phone and you will see why I asked him to do the engine change for me. Jesse just did a clutch for a customer of mine. He is extremely happy!

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 07:07 AM
Okay, got all the wiring and fuel lines disconnected etc.

BUT I CAN'T GET TWO OF THE HEAD BOLTS OUT!!! I figured I'd better call it a night before I break something, #5 and #8 on the loosening order are WAY too tight! I afraid of rounding my 6 point impact socket or breaking my breaker bar :eek:

I might take an impact wrench to it in the morning...

Help?
I remember that being the case on my engine, too. All of mine eventually came loose, but the exhaust side (I'd have to go look at the bolt themselves, I marked which hole each came from) was in worse shape than the intake. Lots of burned oil and crud on the threads that worked like a very effective thread lock. I had a new block, so I guess not being worried about one breaking meant none did. Murphy at work, eh? You can Helicoil the block, although that's a PITA. I would also work on the bolts with penetrating oil and heat.

BTW, YES, YES, YES replace the fuel filter if it's been more than a couple of years since the last time and you have the chance to make it easier! It's not the most impossible job to do in place, but not much fun. With the intake off it's much less likely you'll end up with stripped or rounded over the fittings and you might even keep your lower arms and knuckles intact.

FWIW, I left the head gasket in place when I did the timing original and it lasted another 45,000 miles without failing. I think it was just time for yours to go, you probably didn't do anything to directly cause this. When you get it apart you'll probably find the HG has corrosion nowhere near the timing pass through, so it just happens. Mine was starting to show signs of failing at #3 eventually.

subzali
06-27-2008, 08:16 AM
I have 22,000 miles on the timing chain, and actually there's a lot of green on the front of my engine so I think the water pump may be the culprit of my cooling loss (or at least a gasket failed to seal properly), but I figure since I've gone this far might as well do the head gasket. I have no idea if the fuel filter has EVER been changed.

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 08:29 AM
Green? There's your problem, you're not using Toyota Red.

How old is the water pump? Did you do a compression check? Oh, I have a cooling system pressure tester, you know one of those deals that you replace the radiator cap and pump up the cooling system. Works wonders to find leaks. Sorry I didn't check the thread sooner.

subzali
06-27-2008, 08:36 AM
Well my engine has been on green since before we came to own it, seems pretty happy since we've put over 100,000 miles on it since we've owned it. At this point I don't see the point in switching back? :confused:

No idea how old the water pump is, (back up: here's the story: We are the third owners as far as we know. Truck was originally sold in eastern Nebraska (probably) and I think it was owned by an older gentleman. He then sold it to my grandfather (another older gentleman obviously) who gave it to me as a 16th birthday present of sorts and it had about 85,000 on it. That's why I think a lot of this stuff has never seen replacement, because I KNOW we haven't replaced it since we've owned it.) Did not do a compression check, felt that at 200,000 head gasket needed to be done anyway. I'm going to investigate into the water pump a little more, might be worth replacing anyway just for peace of mind.

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 08:53 AM
I personally use Toyota Red, but I was just poking that hornet's nest. Some people swear by it and others swear at it. I dunno, I figure Toyota specs parts in the engine based on the chemicals in their coolant, but really keeping clean, fresh fluid in the cooling system is probably far more important to the life of the HG, water pump, radiator, etc. than how much silica is or is not in the coolant.

If you do not know that the water pump is 100,000 or less old, I would replace it. They tend to weep for a while like you are seeing before they blow out. Same as Cruisers. If it's off, spin it and if there's not a lot of friction, it's definitely toast.

I'm of the same opinion, that the HG on the 22R has a similar life as the timing components. I base that on the FSM procedure for R&R the timing stuff having you pull the head. We've touched it before, either Toyota expected that you would replace the HG and timing at the same time and wrote the procedure to do that or they found that was pretty optimal during testing. I personally think the parts were designed to be R&R at the same time from the get go. The OEM timing parts are typically safe to about 125,000 miles and that happens to be 200,000 km. On an iron block/aluminum head engine designed in 1983 I'm very sure that Toyota expected the HG to wear out faster than on an iron/iron engine and so it would not surprise me at all to hear that the factory wanted the HG replaced sooner rather than later. That they go to 200,000+ is 'cause the 22R is a robust engine that isn't taxing it's internals and Toyota didn't build the cheapest possible truck by using the cheapest possible parts. The factory 22R HG is a pretty decent part.

Evrgrnmtnman
06-27-2008, 08:56 AM
call Jesse. He Offered, Take Him Up On It. 5 Minutes On The Phone And You Will See Why I Asked Him To Do The Engine Change For Me. Jesse Just Did A Clutch For A Customer Of Mine. He Is Extremely Happy!

X2

Red_Chili
06-27-2008, 09:14 AM
Okay, got all the wiring and fuel lines disconnected etc.

BUT I CAN'T GET TWO OF THE HEAD BOLTS OUT!!! I figured I'd better call it a night before I break something, #5 and #8 on the loosening order are WAY too tight! I afraid of rounding my 6 point impact socket or breaking my breaker bar :eek:

I might take an impact wrench to it in the morning...

Help?
Mine was rough too. #3 and #4 cylinders, exhaust side, perchance? :lmao:

The carbon builds up in the threads like none other. That is a hot zone. In fact, the Toyota OEM head has been known to develop a crack between #3 and #4, allowing coolant to weep into the exhaust but hard to find as it only happens when it is hot. Not sure the rate of occurrence, probably low, but that was enough to persuade me to switch to a Topline head with slightly more thickness in that coolant passage (also why I elected to use ARP head studs, but that is another $100 you probably don't need to spend). I am sure you don't need to do that, just mentioning why those head bolts gum up.

The few 22RE headgaskets I've seen have shown incipient breakdown around the #3 fire ring, between 3 & 4, exhaust side, also. The Chili had a failure there at 145K right after I bought it, and the block deck was corroded as a result. :( Change your coolant often, biggest cause besides overheating.

If they break, they break, but I doubt they will. You DO need to clear the threads either with a thread chaser (preferable to a tap, a couple thousandths smaller) or a used head bolt with a groove ground in it to clean the threads out. Of course, you will be using new head bolts. They are a single use item.

I too am a fan of Toy Red. Slightly less wear, though lots of folks run green with few issues. Also a fan of replacing the water pump around 120K or so, it won't last much longer than that and it is cheap insurance. A Toy reman is just fine.

Red_Chili
06-27-2008, 09:17 AM
You might consider soldering the crimped connections in the fuel injector harness too. Just sayin'.

FWIW, doing it yourself just makes you that much more sure of what is going on in there. These motors are easy to work on. Part of the joy really.

[edit] duh, you are carbed IIRC, right? Even simpler.

ATLR
06-27-2008, 09:34 AM
Subzai, Offer still stans. If you do break a head bolt I have lots of used ones. If you need OEM parts I will sell them to you way cheeper than you can get them from S Toyota. I use a whole sale house that deals in only OEM but for $$$$ Less. ( These parts are made for toyota and some times come in Toyota boxes) Water pump from toyota 86.59 this is not with your dicount, From me the same pump 47.98 plus tax ( dam gov. ) This is a AISIN pump the same as toyota but rite from AISIN ( skip the mid man TOYOTA )

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 09:45 AM
In fact, the Toyota OEM head has been known to develop a crack between #3 and #4, allowing coolant to weep into the exhaust but hard to find as it only happens when it is hot. Not sure the rate of occurrence, probably low, but that was enough to persuade me to switch to a Topline head with slightly more thickness in that coolant passage
Just a point of clarification, I understood this crack to usually develop between the #4 and #3 spark plug holes. Is that not the case or can the crack develop pretty much anywhere on the exhaust side of that corner?

The few 22RE headgaskets I've seen have shown incipient breakdown around the #3 fire ring, between 3 & 4, exhaust side, also. The Chili had a failure there at 145K right after I bought it, and the block deck was corroded as a result. :( Change your coolant often, biggest cause besides overheating.
Good advise, coolant with lots of combustion crud and acid and pieces of metal is gonna be much much worse than using whatever green, red, purple or blue coolant.

If they break, they break, but I doubt they will. You DO need to clear the threads either with a thread chaser (preferable to a tap, a couple thousandths smaller) or a used head bolt with a groove ground in it to clean the threads out. Of course, you will be using new head bolts. They are a single use item.

The 3VZ head bolts are torque-to-yield, 22R are not and so I guess there is some debate as to technically whether they are single use items or not. The FSM does not show them as non-reusable since they didn't put that little black diamond one-time use item flag. But obviously if they are all nasty and corroded, then you shouldn't reuse them as they probably won't take the torque and if the threads do not rotate smoothly in their seats, the torque on the HG won't be even. Also they are not expensive, even from the dealer, about $5 at the Rising Sun price. You can get a set from Ted for like $30, even. So no reason to re-use an important part like that, but I think if you had a pile of 20 and could choose the best 10 to clean up, they'd be fine.

subzali
06-27-2008, 10:36 AM
You might consider soldering the crimped connections in the fuel injector harness too. Just sayin'.

FWIW, doing it yourself just makes you that much more sure of what is going on in there. These motors are easy to work on. Part of the joy really.

[edit] duh, you are carbed IIRC, right? Even simpler.

'91 is EFI dood...:hill:

Just talked with Jesse for a few minutes - gonna try to bump up the pressure on the impact and see if I can break a head bolt :hill:

Red_Chili
06-27-2008, 10:44 AM
Not all of 'em. Carb could be gotten then and even later.
Well anywho, think about soldering and sealing them crimps.

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 10:45 AM
'91 is EFI dood...:hill:
Not always. Pretty sure you could still get a 22R in 1991, depending on configuration. I think the first year that all Toyota trucks in all 50 states were EFI was 1992. I've seen a white, regular cab, 2WD base truck with a carb still which was a 1991 (or maybe 1990, the memory isn't good). Yours is an XtraCab and SR5, so it would have come with a 22R-E automatically, though.

Evrgrnmtnman
06-27-2008, 04:05 PM
Yea, I think the 2WD was still available with a Carb. Just don't come across them much out here in Colorado.
2.4 vs. 2.7 Obviously more valves per cylinder, I guess more HP, any other advantages one over the other?

Red_Chili
06-27-2008, 06:35 PM
2.7 was not until '95.5. Never with a carb, that was 22R only.
It (3RZ) is a decent motor with a manual behind it, makes about the same power as a 3.0 3VZE, but with only four cylinders and much better economy and reliability. About as bulletproof as a 22RE I hear.
With an auto behind it, it sucks as bad as the 3.0 with an auto. Which is bad. DAMHIK.
I understood this crack to usually develop between the #4 and #3 spark plug holes.
As far as the crack between #3 and #4, what I heard (from Ted, who gave input to Topline to make the aluminum thicker than OEM), was that it leaked coolant into the exhaust. Aluminum gets thin there. Don't know about a crack between the spark plug holes, that would be some crack!
:lmao:
You mean between #2 and #3? Not heard of that.

DaveInDenver
06-27-2008, 06:45 PM
You mean between #2 and #3? Not heard of that.
That might be it, would make more sense. No matter, went with the Topline casting for the same reason as you...

subzali
06-29-2008, 12:13 AM
Update:

My truck is a Deluxe I believe, I don't have a tach or a voltmeter...didn't know about carb'ed engines that late, but then again I never claimed to be a minitruck guy...;)

My sister's '97 with the 2.7 - I love that Taco (4x4)! Manual tranny, that thing has great torque and gets good mileage and power! Is it dual overhead cam too it seems like my memory is telling me?

I got all the head bolts out without breaking any. The two that were stuck were a) the one between #1 and #2 on the exhaust side and b) the one between #3 and #4 on the exhaust side. I had been hitting them with some PB Blaster (for what it was worth, probably not much :rolleyes:) and the impact gun for a while. I called Jesse and he said to crank up the psi on the compressor to about 125. If it ended up breaking a bolt then that would be good because it would release pressure on the head and if it broke down the shaft a bit then the head would slide off fairly easy. This is because most of what holds the head bolts stuck there is corrosion and buildup in the head, not in the threads in the block. But I got lucky, I cranked on the breaker bar a little bit harder and realized that the bolt was spinning ever so slightly, and I wasn't just rounding the tops of the heads off. Whew. They were pretty gummed up.

So I then tossed the head and intake into the new parts chaser (below) ;) and ran up to Jesse's shop. What a great guy! Thanks for the tip CJ, Jesse spent like an hour and a half helping me with the allen head to get the intake off, then helped me clean stuff up a little bit, and gave me lots of tips and advice! Standup! :thumb:

I then took the head over to Gunn Automotive, used those guys for the Cruiser 1 1/2 years ago, really like their shop! Hopefully I'll get it back Tuesday. At first glance it didn't look too bad but we'll see what they say once they get it apart. Probably replace springs, I doubt any valves will need to be replaced, maybe #4 exhaust if any. This head has never been off, the "whiskers" as Jesse called them are still there from the factory. That was expected.

Anyway, I broke the timing chain guide (long one) getting the head off, so I'm going to have to pull the timing chain apart again, and I think it dropped in the oil pan, so I'm going to have to pull that again to fish it out. Sigh. I'm replacing the water pump though, have a new one of those on hand now thanks to Jesse.

So anyway either Sunday night or Monday night I'm going to start hitting it hard again, try to make this as quick and painless as possible. Going into the timing chain isn't all that bad, as there were things I could have and should have done better with that job, that I know about now and am going to do right this time. It was fun driving the 40 Friday and looking forward to driving it for the first part of this week, but the red truck is a lot nicer! 14mpg in the 40 isn't quite 27mpg in the red truck!

subzali
06-30-2008, 10:53 PM
Question: when changing the fuel filter, do the bolts need to be in a certain spot so the holes drilled in them will allow fuel to flow? Or is the fitting designed to allow fuel flow no matter the orientation of the bolt, so I can just crank it on tight?

Red_Chili
07-01-2008, 07:36 AM
Banjo bolts work no matter the orientation. Use the new copper washers that should have come with the fuel filter, or anneal the old ones. Watch the heat... DAMHIK. :rolleyes:

Hulk
07-01-2008, 09:53 AM
...or anneal the old ones.

anneal • \uh-NEEL\ • verb link (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwwodarch.pl?May.02.2008)

*1 : to make (as steel or glass) less brittle by heating and then cooling

2 : strengthen, toughen

Example Sentence:
The glassmaker shaped the vase with quick, fluid movements and then placed it in the oven to anneal the glass.

Did you know?
If you were looking for a saying to apply to the word "anneal," it might be "everything old is new again." The word was originally associated with one of the oldest technologies of humankind: fire. It derives from the Old English word "onælan," which was formed from the Old English root "āl," meaning "fire." In its earliest known uses, which date from around the year 1000, "anneal" meant simply "to set on fire." That sense has become obsolete, however, and nowadays "anneal" is associated with a much more recent technological development. It has come to be used in the context of DNA research, in reference to the heating and cooling of double-stranded nucleic acid.


Hey, I learned a new word today! Thanks!

DaveInDenver
07-01-2008, 10:29 AM
And you may ask how does one anneal a copper washer? I use my propane torch, a pair of pliers, one can of beer (Oskar Blues is preferred for annealing) and a cup of water.

Hold the washer around it's edges (I figure I want a minimum amount of material under the plier's grip, my thinking is more even heating). If you have a big steel or ceramic plate, you could set the washer on that and heat, your choice.

Hold pre-opened beer in left hand (assuming you are right handed), hold washer in flame with right and heat the copper until it glows dark orange or almost cherry and enjoy beer at reasonable pace. It'll only take a minute to heat up, but using the beer timer will guarantee you have it hot enough (not to mention keeps operator cool). BTW, technically it needs to be about 775F or hotter, but you know it's just a washer so no one's judging on perfection. Just as an aside, a propane torch flame burns at about 1,800F and so it's technically possible to melt the copper if you hold it right at the point of the blue flame. But this unlikely unless you are a really slow drinker, don't shake at all or you live in Phoenix where the ambient temp is just below the melting point of copper anyway.

Once it's there, let it cool. If you are in a hurry, throw it in the water, doesn't matter since (unlike steel) in your garage you are not gonna cool it fast enough to change its characteristics and cooling slow will not make a difference. Go for convenience and throw 'er in the water and be done. If the copper object is large, be mindful of the happy super-heated water that may jump out of the cup.

Presto, what was once hardened and squished will be pliable again, ready to re-squish next time. I just used new copper fuel line washers, but our old Civic had a copper washer on it's oil drain plug and I didn't like the idea of spending the money for a new one every 3,000 miles.

Red_Chili
07-01-2008, 02:56 PM
...using the beer timer ...
:lmao::lmao:

subzali
07-02-2008, 07:14 AM
timing stuff - getting the crank and cam aligned. If the crank pulley is on TDC and the cam is "up" - meaning the notch in the cam gear is up - then that's always the correct time right? What happens if I'm a tooth off on the cam gear? The dimple isn't EXACTLY straight up and down, it's on the right slightly, but if I jump a tooth then it'll be slightly on the left of straight up. :confused:

As long as the crank is "up" and the cam is "up" there's no way for me to get it 180 degrees off or anything right?

ATLR
07-02-2008, 07:18 AM
Yes when the crank is up and the cam is on rite, the mark will be a lil to the left. The chain has marks on it too. If the chain is mark to mark you really cant mess it up.

DaveInDenver
07-02-2008, 08:24 AM
timing stuff - getting the crank and cam aligned.
The right way is with the engine exactly at TDC, the crank gear dimple will be pointed straight down and the cam gear dimple mark will be at about 11:30. The cam gear locating dowel pin is at 12 o'clock. Hard to see the orientation here, but the dimple is just to the left of the dowel. It should be obvious if you are off a tooth, but honestly I've never seen what a jumped tooth looks like up close. Also remember the cam and crank timing marks only line up every other rotation of the engine, so if you're not at TDC on #1 at the compression cycle, then it might look like the cam is 180 degree out of time. You know you are at the 'right' TDC on #1 if both rockers on #1 are loose and both rockers on #4 are tight.

subzali
07-02-2008, 08:26 AM
Yeah I don't want to pull it off again to check the marks - the dimple is what I'm going by right? Not necessarily the notch? They are not exactly in line...

I'll jump it a tooth and see how it looks.

DaveInDenver
07-02-2008, 08:35 AM
Yeah I don't want to pull it off again to check the marks - the dimple is what I'm going by right? Not necessarily the notch? They are not exactly in line...

I'll jump it a tooth and see how it looks.
Yes, the bright chain links and gear dimples need to line up for the crank and cam to be in time (with stock deck height). Using the crank woodruff key and cam dowel locations are sanity checks. And yes, the cam gear dimple and dowel are not exactly in-line.

subzali
07-02-2008, 08:49 AM
So you're telling me I need to pull the timing chain cover off again to check the bright links.

DaveInDenver
07-02-2008, 08:59 AM
So you're telling me I need to pull the timing chain cover off again to check the bright links.
No, probably not. If you installed it using the bright links, then just pulling the valve cover should be enough to verify. With the crank at TDC on the #1 compression cycle (you might use the crank key if you don't trust the oil pump marks), the cam dowel should be exactly 12 o'clock and the cam gear dimple just to the counterclockwise side of that, like the hour hand at 11:30. If it's not, then you can try to adjust in place or pull the timing cover, that's up to you. But you don't absolutely need to pull the cover just to check. In fact, the bright links aren't terribly useful after installation because you have to rotate the engine a bunch of times to get them to line up again with the dots. They only line up once every 48 rotations or something crazy like that.

BTW, if you do try and move the cam gear without pulling the cover, let me know how that goes and I might try and bribe you to come over and help me install that LC Engineering adjustable cam gear I got. I want to mess with timing on this Engnbldr cam to experiment a little I think, but I'm just gun shy about dropping the chain into the pan...

subzali
07-02-2008, 09:11 AM
Okay, that is what I needed. I did not pay attention to the bright links when I put the chain back on the crank gear, so right now that is not a good go-by. Going by your description I am one tooth off on the cam gear, so I'll jump it without pulling the cover (I did it last night a couple times) so it's in the right place. It's a two person job to get the cam gear back on the camshaft; one person has to rotate the crank while the other finagles with the cam gear.

subzali
07-14-2008, 11:10 PM
Alright, got it back together and fired up tonight, I adjusted the valves WAY too loose cold, but now it's purring like a kitten after a hot readjustment.

So now what? Retighten the head bolts after a couple thermal cycles? And then readjust the valves? It also has a little stumbling/hesitation that wasn't there before, I'm going to get a new cap and rotor and put some top engine cleaner in (for the parts of the intake I couldn't get to) to see if I can't get some of the extra junk cleared out.

This is a job I'm pretty sure I would never do again, especially with a reasonable price from a shop. The timing chain is easy compared to this (way less bolts, hoses, electrical, and chances for failure/screwup), but I guess in some ways I'm glad I did it. It kinda took some of the mystery out of the EFI/multiport injection and some other stuff I guess. And now that they're both done, as long as I didn't screw something up, it should be good to go for quite a long time, which was kinda the point.

But it did take a little over three weeks what with all the other stuff I had going on...:rolleyes:

corsair23
07-15-2008, 01:28 AM
Awesome job Matt :thumb:

Red_Chili
07-15-2008, 08:30 AM
So now what? Retighten the head bolts after a couple thermal cycles? And then readjust the valves?
Yep.

This is a job I'm pretty sure I would never do again, especially with a reasonable price from a shop. The timing chain is easy compared to this (way less bolts, hoses, electrical, and chances for failure/screwup), but I guess in some ways I'm glad I did it. It kinda took some of the mystery out of the EFI/multiport injection and some other stuff I guess. And now that they're both done, as long as I didn't screw something up, it should be good to go for quite a long time, which was kinda the point.

But it did take a little over three weeks what with all the other stuff I had going on...:rolleyes:
Let me know when you find an affordable price for this from a shop... :eek:

FWIW, a timing chain DOES include all this! You took a shortcut!

Don't worry about three weeks. I have been rebuilding my '93 truck for a year and a half. It should be running inside a month now. Maybe within two weeks time permitting.

subzali
07-15-2008, 08:41 AM
FWIW, a timing chain DOES include all this! You took a shortcut!

You're right :o

We'll see how it goes this afternoon!

rover67
07-15-2008, 09:21 AM
hey man, that thing looks super shiny inside... you guys must've stayed on top of the oil changes :)

DaveInDenver
07-15-2008, 09:47 AM
So now what? Retighten the head bolts after a couple thermal cycles? And then readjust the valves? It also has a little stumbling/hesitation that wasn't there before, I'm going to get a new cap and rotor and put some top engine cleaner in (for the parts of the intake I couldn't get to) to see if I can't get some of the extra junk cleared out.
I set my valves to 0.009/0.011 (very loose side of Ted's recommendation) on the stand and for the initial 20 minute run. On a stock engine I would have done 0.008/0.012 like the book said. After the first run, I rechecked the head bolt torque and valve clearance, the bolts were fine but the valves were off. I checked both again at the next two oil changes and the head bolts torqued down a little at 200 miles but have not moved since. The valves needed adjustment at 200 and 1000 miles, but haven't been much off since. I need to pull the valve cover again soon (coming up to 15,000 miles on the engine) and I'm sure they need touching up.

ATLR
07-15-2008, 02:19 PM
Good job Matt, glad you got it done!!!:cheers:

Hulk
07-15-2008, 03:31 PM
Alright, got it back together and fired up tonight, I adjusted the valves WAY too loose cold, but now it's purring like a kitten after a hot readjustment.

I seem to recall doing a valve adjustment on my old 2F while it was running. Did you do that, Matt? I'm not entirely sure it was a good idea.

DaveInDenver
07-15-2008, 03:36 PM
I seem to recall doing a valve adjustment on my old 2F while it was running. Did you do that, Matt? I'm not entirely sure it was a good idea.
That is a very bad idea on a 22R. Well, unless you like hot oil facials.

Red_Chili
07-16-2008, 09:00 AM
While it was RUNNING? Tell me you misspoke... I can just see you chasing the screw tappets with a screwdriver and 12mm wrench whilst they are popping up and down...
:lmao:

DaveInDenver
07-16-2008, 09:07 AM
While it was RUNNING? Tell me you misspoke... I can just see you chasing the screw tappets with a screwdriver and 12mm wrench whilst they are popping up and down...
:lmao:
It is possible to chase the adjusters on a 2F with it running. Never could figure out the logic behind trying to do it running, but at least it's possible to do without being coated in oil and (hypothetically) losing a finger. Completely impossible on a 22R with the overhead cam and all the oil being slung around. Not to mention the 22R-E won't run very well at all with the 710 cap off, much less trying with no valve cover! All that modern junk with PCV and vacuum, ya know.

subzali
07-23-2008, 05:26 PM
Whew! I retorqued the head bolts last night, none of them turned significantly, so I'll check them again in a few thousand miles. Tomorrow I'll reset the valves. I've been baffled by a hesitation/lack of power issue since I got it running last week. Squishy! suggested I reset the throttle position sensor, which I haven't done yet and may not have to. I don't know how involved it is, and I guess if it runs well (which it does now) I won't bother with it.

Last night I also checked the timing and advanced it to 8 degrees BTDC, it was around 5. It seemed to help this morning driving to work, and then I realized that I made that check/adjustment WITHOUT shorting out the diagnostic block! :doh: I thought I had had it shorted when I originally did the timing, but must not have because it would have read -2 degrees BTDC (or 2 degrees ATDC). So after I got out of work, I started the truck up, got the timing light out and shorted the diagnostic block and set it to about 7-8 degrees BTDC (slightly advanced from factory specs), and it has the power it used to and no hesitation that I can distinguish from other road/tire feel!

My dad speculated that because it was so far retarded it was trying to compensate somehow in the ignition and that was causing the hesitation I was feeling. Either way, it seems to be all better now!

And yes Toyota recommends a hot adjustment of the valves, just how hot nobody really knows but technically if the engine is running that's as hot as it's going to get, so that's why I suppose some 2F guys try (succeed?) to adjust their valves with it running. I get it hot, turn it off, and pull the valve cover (for both engines), that seems hot enough for me. The head was still too hot to keep my hand on after sitting for 1 1/2 hours last night with the hood up, so I don't think 2-3 degrees drop while you're adjusting the valves will hurt anything. And like Dave said, I don't like hot-oil facials while trying to adjust my valves.

So, ready to go for another 150,000 miles! :thumb:

Rzeppa
07-23-2008, 09:05 PM
And yes Toyota recommends a hot adjustment of the valves, just how hot nobody really knows but technically if the engine is running that's as hot as it's going to get, so that's why I suppose some 2F guys try (succeed?) to adjust their valves with it running.

I've always questioned that hot versus cold adjustment parameter. I've adjusted while hot, and while at room temperature while during engine assembly, and never noticed a measurable difference. I still try to do it "hot" as I showed Ricardo when he brought his rig over for adjustment. It's what the manual says, so I try to stick to it.

"While running" is totally bogus - there have been many discussions about that on the LCML over the years and the consensus is that this is a thing that is particular to certain V8s, certainly not F or R series engines.

But when I put an engine together (or even just put a head on), I adjust. Then after a few hundred miles, do it again hot and it's exactly where it was when cold. [shrugs shoulders]. Go Figure.

FYI, doing an old school F engine is a cakewalk compared to a later 2F or 22R/22RE as far as how much stuff you have to pull while it's still hot to get the cover off. FJ60s rightly suck in that regard ;-)

subzali
07-23-2008, 09:11 PM
22R-E is 8 M8 bolts (4 for valve cover, 3 for vacuum/electrical bracket on valve cover, 1 for valve on back of valve cover), remove accelerator and cruise cable from mounts on top of valve cover and push to firewall, remove spark plugs from mounts on valve cover, disconnect one side of front PCV hose, disconnect two vacuum hoses that go to power steering pump and take them off of mount on valve cover. Takes about 2 minutes. But an FJ60 - yeah that's a royal pain.

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 06:39 AM
Adjust them hot. The book is pretty clear about this. I was experimenting with doing them cold and it's true that things change hot fairly minimally, but it's not consistent across all the valves. Some showed minimal change in clearance and some quite a bit. Adjusting them cold left me with uneven valve lash, so I went back to doing them after driving home from work. If 14 miles of highway and some stop-n-go isn't enough, nothing will be. My feeling is hot means operating conditions, not just the t-stat open.
Takes about 2 minutes.
As far as the junk, like Subzali says, just a couple of minutes. You can do about half of it with the engine idling (bolts for the VSV plate, spark plug brackets, plastic vacuum hose hold-downs, etc.) and leave the 4 valve cover bolts and disconnecting the hoses to remove the cover. Then from shut-down to exposed valves it's no more than 90 seconds, depending on your burned forearms tolerance.

Red_Chili
07-24-2008, 09:14 AM
I do mine cold like the rest of the world and every tappet on every machine I own and have had no issues. There is a service range of acceptable clearances. Probably far more important to make sure the adjusting screws have no wear at the tappet; these are cheap from the dealer. Replace them.

Hot is a pain in the butt. No thankee.

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 09:36 AM
I do mine cold like the rest of the world
LOL! There are at least two knucklehead perfectionist dorks who do them hot. The other one drives a rusty 1980 long bed.

wesintl
07-24-2008, 10:17 AM
I do mine cold like the rest of the world

maybe mini truckers do em cold but certainly not the rest of the world. I can certainly tell the difference between a hot and cold adjustment on the tappets. The old days most mechanics at a garage would do em while the engine is running. I've seen it done on my 2f. Since I don't do it everyday if I do em while running it peens my feelers.