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newbie
07-23-2008, 08:04 PM
I have recently converted from good old american muscle to toyota 22RE
so having said this I asume you see where this is going[wheres the power]
Going from 300+HP to 100HP? sucks,but am diggin on the 19.65MPG.
So here is the ? 1986 4-runner W/22-RE,5-speed,dual2.28 cases,5.29 gears
ARB's and 35x12.5x17. Engine has 256,ooo miles seems to run good but cant
last forever. Looing for options I only want to do this once, and realy dont
want to re-do any mod's already done. I have come across a 22RTE,but we are only talking 30 odd? HP. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

subzali
07-23-2008, 08:07 PM
If you want more power, the Chevy 4.3 has been swapped in successfully in many applications. The Toyota 3.4 has been swapped in by some in this very club, there are many local Toyota 4x4 businesses that could help you out.

I'm not a minitruck guy though, I'm just throwing those out there.

newbie
07-23-2008, 08:25 PM
Thanx for the quick reply
I have heard of both swaps and looked at ORS for the 3.4 swap,looks very complicated
and very expensive. Not completely out but definately out in future.Any idea on MPG

Man Jerk
07-23-2008, 08:35 PM
I would stay away from the 22-ret. Too much work for too little gain.

The 3.4 liter is a great motor. Some of the conversion parts can be had out of the junkyard which will save you some money.

The 4.3 liter is also a great swap. Best thing is the 4.3's are a dime a dozen, and you can swap in a 700R4 at the same time.

chilitoy
07-23-2008, 09:44 PM
I was just reading about a swap done with the 5 cylinder engine that comes in the H3 and some of the Chevy Colorados on the Trail Gear forum. It is an aluminum block and has almost the same HP and torque(a little less), but the savings in weight probably make up for it. Check out www.trail-gear.com, it looks like a good option, with plenty of other options to go with it.

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 05:54 AM
The turbo motor, sorta rare and in stock form not worth the trouble (they have HG reliability problems). It's possible to build up a 22R-TE into a 200 HP engine with a lot of time and money. A lot of money. But a good HG and ARP studs will help a stock engine, but they're only 140HP from Toyota. You can build a naturally aspirated 22R-E to get close to that.

When I built the engine in my truck, I looked at doing the 3.4L swap. Going from a 22R-E to a 5VZ isn't any easier or cheaper than any other engine, since your current drivetrain won't bolt right up. If you had a 3.0L, going to a 3.4L is easier, just a wiring harness change. But the motor mounts, tranny and bellhousing have to change from the 22R.

You can use the bellhousing or tranny from a turbo 22R-E truck (rare and expensive) and keep the Ultimate, but the motor mounts still won't be right. Marlin can adapt dual cases to a V6 transmission, but all this just adds to the cost. It's not a simple engine swap IMO going from a 22R to a 5VZ. Absolutely doable, just not necessarily simple.

Red_Chili is really the guy and when he gets his rear in gear and checks the Internets this morning, he'll have good insight. He gets about 17MPG I think when he drives like a grandma, so there is a slight fuel economy hit going to the 3.4L.

BTW, I stuck with the 22R-E after looking at all the options. Consider maybe a mild build on a 22R-E, a fresh engine with 130HP will be tolerable. You're still slow, but getting around 20 MPG is certainly nice. Not much is going to be a good substitute for a small block, so those are big shoes to fill.

AxleIke
07-24-2008, 08:36 AM
Pretty hard to get horse power and MPG. For the easy swaps you will trade one for the other.

I drive a 22re. Its gutless. It does vail pass at 45 mph, on a good day.

I get 21 city, 25 hwy, sometimes better.

What are you doing/towing/racing that you need all that horsepower for? If money is no object, then sure, get a big motor at 10mpg, or whatever, and have at it. The 22re can easily maintain the speed limit around the flat lands, and even in the hills. Only the steepest passes does it have issue. With proper maintenance, there are 22re motors in excess of 400k miles and running strong. with mediocre maintenance, they will run over 250k with no problem.

Red_Chili
07-24-2008, 08:45 AM
Ahem. I get 19.1 mpg when driving like a grandma. I get 17 on the highway maintaining a reasonable speed and generally keeping my foot out of the throttle body. I got about the same with a 22RE, so it is almost twice the power with no hit to mileage. Sometimes you have to have a minimum of power to drag a truck around and still get mileage.

The 3.4L swap is a bit more involved when starting with the 22RE simply because it is so easy when starting with a 3.0. You need to swap out the drive train (engine + transmission). This is not as hard as it could be; use a Front Range Offroad crossmember and make motor mounts that you can slide forward and rearward to position the motor before welding. The wiring harness from ORS is quite nice but with complete wiring diagrams it can be figured out; you basically need to splice in the truck's body harness to the 3.4 ECM.

Friends don't let friends do Chevy mills. Don't listen to these Chevota-lovin' cruiserheads. Keep the purity of the minitruck race.
:lmao:

FWIW, Jeff Moskowicz (http://www.well.com/~mosk/) is quite an expert on 22RTE powerplants, and you can equal or exceed the 3.4 power - certainly blow the doors off what you have now - without too much rocket science or voodoo or even unreliability. They do not necessarily blow headgaskets if built correctly. That would be a way fun project and would not involve modifying your drivetrain necessarily.

rover67
07-24-2008, 08:54 AM
Hey! I get 17 in mine going 70 up and down hills with 35's!! I like the setup!

hi-jack off..

I dunno anythign about minitrucks...

:)

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 09:02 AM
FWIW, Jeff Moskowicz (http://www.well.com/~mosk/) is quite an expert on 22RTE powerplants, and you can equal or exceed the 3.4 power - certainly blow the doors off what you have now - without too much rocket science or voodoo or even unreliability.
His engine is very modified and to get past 200 HP he has done a whole lot of things. He's been dialing it in for 8 years at least. The turbo system is nowhere near stock anymore (uses a Garrett right?) and the EFI system is based on a Ford 65mm throttle body and uses all aftermarket parts to get the tuning. It would have to cost a boat load to duplicate that engine in its current form. Heck the short block he's built has all kinds of nice things, forged pistons, all the worked over internals. That had to cost close to what I spend total on my whole long block.

Red_Chili
07-24-2008, 09:02 AM
What are you doing/towing/racing that you need all that horsepower for? ...Only the steepest passes does it have issue.
Or when hauling any cargo. Or pulling 35s. Or a popup camper. With an elk on top.
Dude. Dude dude dude. Taste the Kool-Aid and you will laugh at such things.

With proper maintenance, there are 22re motors in excess of 400k miles and running strong. with mediocre maintenance, they will run over 250k with no problem.
The 5VZ matches that record.

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 09:11 AM
Taste the Kool-Aid and you will laugh at such things.
Different strokes I guess. I like driving my truck and hate driving her 4Runner. Probably that I've grown used to the Hilux Way: 3rd gear, 3700 RPM, sipping on the mug of coffee, tunes on the radio, just chill. Although I think I do need to paint a big yellow warning on the back so that people quit trying to push me down the road from stop lights in traffic. I'm giving her all she's got, Captain!

Red_Chili
07-24-2008, 09:53 AM
Just pokin' fun.

I do find it humorous when 22RE owners tell themselves, "why would someone need any more power? This is fine, just fine."

The 22RE is a venerable, iconically reliable, simple, easy to work on, easy to hop up, easy to maintain (except for burning your fingers when you adjust the valves) gutless wonder. I proudly have one in my daily driver (but I did put a head and cam on it).
:lmao:
You just cannot expect it to pull much weight or overcome much drag. It would be a real hotrod in a Bobzooki though.

DaveInDenver
07-24-2008, 10:04 AM
I do find it humorous when 22RE owners tell themselves, "why would someone need any more power? This is fine, just fine."
We've got a name, clinically acute delusionists.

PS: I would have considered a swap to a 3.4L if I had the time, money, space, tools, blah, blah. As it was, took me plenty long enough to deal with just getting a 22R back in where one came out. Darn the unfortunate who only have one daily driver/camper/OHV/chores truck.

PPS: Just occurred to me, another option is the 3RZ. The Tacoma came with a W59 and Marlin has a bellhousing that adapts the R150 or R151 to a 3RZ. This might be easier to fit into the space where a 22R came out, although it does not eliminate the need to mess with drivetrains, motor mounts and wiring.

AxleIke
07-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Or when hauling any cargo. Or pulling 35s. Or a popup camper. With an elk on top.
Dude. Dude dude dude. Taste the Kool-Aid and you will laugh at such things.

Well, thats why I asked. If he is doing any of that stuff, a swap is in order.

I don't do anything like that, and thus my 22re is fine.

If the OP has lots of money, I see no reason not to swap in a 3.4. The high cost of the swap prevents me.

Not to mention that I am convinced that my gutless wonder keeps my truck together, and not breaking parts. Even the mighy 3.0 on buddies trucks breaks parts. I just don't have the power.

The 5VZ matches that record.

Yes it does. My post was in reference to the OP wanting to swap because he was worried about reliability.

As for 5VZ mileage, and 22re mileage, it is totally engine/truck/gearing dependent. I have heard of mileage like chili's out of swapped trucks, and I have heard of mileage in the 12-14 range out of 5vz swapped trucks. I've heard the same out of 22re's.

My fathers 3rd gen 4runner gets 15ish, sometimes better. 12 on the hwy loaded with gear for camping.

My mothers 04 taco, same motor, gets 22-23.

Its truck/engine dependent.

Anyway, its all just my humble opinion. I highly recommend taking it with a grain of salt. I am about as far from being an expert as you can get. :D

Red_Chili
07-24-2008, 11:45 AM
I should think you could pull off the swap for under $2500 if you did everything yourself. Involving others increases the cost dramatically. DAMHIK.

The turbo looks to be MUCH simpler, despite involving a LOT of gee-gaws and widgets.

AxleIke
07-24-2008, 11:56 AM
I should think you could pull off the swap for under $2500 if you did everything yourself. Involving others increases the cost dramatically. DAMHIK.

Possibly. It would take a LONG time though, at least it would for me. Splicing all of those wires and getting everything right, plus making the exhaust work= tough.

I personally would buy the harness and exhaust stuff from ORS. Expensive, yes, but for me, having the wiring stuff out of the way would be worth it.

newbie
07-24-2008, 09:01 PM
Thanx to everyone for there time and opinions it was very helpful.Special thanks to
Bill Morgan and Dave A. as this was my direction all along. I Know a lot about 1st gen
Blazers [trial/error way to much money wasted] and not enough about 1st gen runners.
Basicly built clone of other trucks that I liked.Don't get me wrong I like what I have
[NO REGRETS] The runner is my daily driver,weekend wheeler but is not my only vehicle.
It was never intended to tow. I still have the cycle weather permitting or the Chevelle
if needed. And to the 22RE lovers did not mean to diss it as it does run good,love the mileage I just feel like a JB Hunt truck when entering highway or trying to pass.
I was looking for a little more performance with what I have or the 22RTE only
because I have access to an 88 standard cab 4x4 for cheap and was told it would be
a very easy swap?

nuclearlemon
07-24-2008, 10:26 PM
welcome to the real world.

i've long been a cruiser fanatic. a couple of years ago, i acquired a 22r (no, not r-e.....r....carbed) pickup. i traded it off for a powerchoke f250 to tow the raffle rig last year.........worst mistake of my life. i miss that "underpowered" little rig. i did 100mph home from idaho a couple years ago (yes, i posted proof). awesome mileage. not he best power, but better than american crap.

i'll trade you an 95 powerchoke plus a little cashola .;)

RockRunner
07-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Bill, what about the newer 4 cylinder motors? The 2.4 I think that comes stock with 150 HP. You and Justin suggested that to me so I can still use all the tranny stuff but get more HP for cheap and easy. You can then build that engine a little and get some more HP out of it.

That is the way I am thinking I may go if I really "need" that extra power........

DaveInDenver
07-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Bill, what about the newer 4 cylinder motors? The 2.4 I think that comes stock with 150 HP. You and Justin suggested that to me so I can still use all the tranny stuff but get more HP for cheap and easy. You can then build that engine a little and get some more HP out of it.

That is the way I am thinking I may go if I really "need" that extra power........
The Tacoma came with either a 2RZ or a 3RZ. The 2RZ is a 2.4L and the 3RZ is 2.7L. If you are going to the trouble, get the 3RZ, that's the one that makes 150HP. Basically the reliability and characteristics of a 22R-E, but with the power a 3VZ and none of the HG problems.

But it's similar to a 3.4L swap since the 3RZ does not just bolt into the 22R motor mounts and you have to do some wiring harness and exhaust work. The bellhousing from the W59/3RZ does bolt onto the W56 that was probably on your 22R-E (or you can use a R150/151 with Marlin's bellhousing). So you don't have to mess with moving the transfer case cross member or changing the whole drivetrain. So it's certainly less work than a 3.4L if you already have a 22R. To be honest, that was and is the only swap that really interests me.

BTW, the definitive 3RZ swap thread IMO:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19275

Red_Chili
07-28-2008, 12:59 PM
Our Tacoma has the 3RZ. Fine motor as long as you don't put the crap slushbox behind it. Lots of guys (including Marlin) like it as a 22RE replacement swap.

DaveInDenver
07-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Our Tacoma has the 3RZ. Fine motor as long as you don't put the crap slushbox behind it. Lots of guys (including Marlin) like it as a 22RE replacement swap.
This is definitely the case. If you have a 5 speed and 22R-E, the only sometimes found in the USA engine easier to swamp in would be a 2L diesel. This shared the exact same motor mount locations and so there is zero fabrication required to make it fit, just wiring, plumbing and getting the right bellhousing for the W56. The 2/3RZ is the next easiest because the bellhousing from a W59 bolts to a W56 and so you only have to locate the front two engine mounts, along with all the wiring and exhaust work. Marlin's done his 1980 and a pretty much all the trucks from the guys in the shop are running 3RZ engines. IMVHO, it's the only swap that is easy enough to make it worth the time. Even the 3.4L just seems like more of a PITA than it's worth. I'd probably just buy a Tacoma... But the 3RZ fits in the engine bay right from what I've seen. No need to find the right oil pan or worry about the hood closing. The stock air box works, it can be run generally with the stock 22R radiator, etc.