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Caribou Sandstorm
08-01-2008, 10:15 AM
Do you all have a weekend already planned to do Holy Cross this summer?

Are we are doing it later this summer?

MDH33
08-01-2008, 10:37 AM
Holy Cross isn't one of the trails the club usually runs as an annual event. Post it up in the Events Staging and Planning section and go for it. :thumb:

Tch2fly
08-01-2008, 11:22 AM
Chris PM'd ya

subzali
08-01-2008, 12:00 PM
some of us have been talking about it - we were thinking mid-late September (hopefully before the snow starts flying). I'll try to get a thread started in the Event Staging Section.

Jacket
08-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Isaac (AxleIke) was up there a couple weeks ago, and I believe he's up there again this weekend for a second try. Based on what I read, French Creek was pretty tough (tougher than previous years?), and of course the trail was crowded and so there was a lot of waiting around. I'm not sure my wheelbase and tire size would allow passage through the Creek.

Here's the pics if you're interested:

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107293

Hulk
08-01-2008, 12:53 PM
I'd like to do this trail sometime soon, but my summer is absolutely over-scheduled.

RockRunner
08-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Depeding on date and time i may be able to do it. post it up!

isotel
08-01-2008, 04:59 PM
Colorado Land Cruisers is running it the weekend of Sept 20th we would always love others to join! I cant wait to run this trail!, and it should be nice up there with the trees changing colors, Less Run off in the Creek and less broken jeeps on the trail! ;)

subzali
08-01-2008, 06:16 PM
All right! Dual club run! Let's do it! :thumb:

Caribou Sandstorm
08-01-2008, 11:56 PM
Cool, also looks like a camping the First night type of gig.

I am doing a bunch of runs with some other Colorado FJCers.

I am sure I could gather a few nice guys with appropriate mods to join us.

Sep. actually works better for me also.

AxleIke
08-03-2008, 12:08 AM
French creek is gnarly. No one without two lockers made it on either of our trips. 33's is really too small, you get turtled. Most with 35's were turtled, toyotas and jeeps alike. I got through with a dinged fender and corner light, and a blown bead. Made it with no winch, but a couple of well placed rocks. Its not so much the creek, its the exit. The buggies have knocked down a large rock that means there is one way through only, and the smallest rock is about 3 feet high.

Really, the front locker is what pulled me and another guy through. All three of the 1 locker trucks got hung bad, one blew a radiator. 1 locker 40's probably have a good shot with some skinny pedal. Just risk a break down.

If this is scheduled for a weekend, you want to be on the trail by 8:30 to 9. No messing around before hand. On the first trip, we were on the trail by 9, had a break, fixed by 11, and I waited at the creek for 3 hours and there was no chance in sight of going across.

The second try was great. No wait. On trail by 9 again, no breaks, and no wait.

AxleIke
08-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Here is the latest trek. My blown bead pic is right in front of the exit rocks.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108369

corsair23
08-03-2008, 04:55 AM
I call SHOTGUN in Chris' rig (assuming none of the family is going with him) :D

Caribou Sandstorm
08-04-2008, 10:33 PM
chris who? Me? Your in. We will make it through, might finally take some damage but we will make it. Spoken like a true rookie, eh?

No front lockers though. might finally get to use the winchline..

Could this be that much harder then Rubicon? I better read up a bit more.

Robbie, what are your thoughts?

AxleIke
08-04-2008, 11:07 PM
Harder than Rubicon? I've never driven the rubicon, but I HIGHLY doubt that HC comes close, unless you count Cleveland rock. CR gave the guys with two lockers, crawlers and 40's a hard time.

In the creek, damage isn't too likely unless you go all out careless. The difficulty is that the obstacle is large rocks in the creek.

Meaning, smooth, rounded rocks, from years of water moving over them, and your tires are wet. Traction is hard to find. That is where the front locker helps. With a winch, you will get across no problem.

There is a line through the exit that we found that works really well for smaller trucks. You put your front wheels over a rock, then hard passenger, and ride the rock on the slider. Lines you up perfectly for the next ledge. Obviously that description is terrible, but once you see it, it'll make sense. Unless the creek has changed again.

Caribou Sandstorm
08-05-2008, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the notes Ike, really appreciate your experience and feedback.

Will you run this trail again, with everyone if we all rally to do it? Do you think I can do it with 33s and a 3 inch lift? I have rear lockers, all the skids and the winch, would be fun to actually use the winch a bit. Need to learn how to use it.

I just read a Sept. '07 report just now from Trail damage wiht pictures and it looked like 35s or 37s are standard issue for this trail?

I asked about it vs rubicon because Rubicon was hard but do-able, not a total buggy trail. But reading your post and looking at the photos, really got my attention.

J Kimmel
08-05-2008, 07:55 AM
we always go at least once a year, heading up there thursday to camp at least one night maybe two up top :) the creek is much more difficult and cleveland rock is fun to play on :)

AxleIke
08-05-2008, 08:10 AM
Thanks for the notes Ike, really appreciate your experience and feedback.

Will you run this trail again, with everyone if we all rally to do it? Do you think I can do it with 33s and a 3 inch lift? I have rear lockers, all the skids and the winch, would be fun to actually use the winch a bit. Need to learn how to use it.

I just read a Sept. '07 report just now from Trail damage wiht pictures and it looked like 35s or 37s are standard issue for this trail?

I asked about it vs rubicon because Rubicon was hard but do-able, not a total buggy trail. But reading your post and looking at the photos, really got my attention.

Perhaps you miss understood my rubicon comparison, but I think this trail is probably easier than the rubicon by a good amount.

For the creek, I'd recommend letting a couple of the bigger guys go first, which is what we did, then giving it a shot. If you can't make it, haul out the winch. With the FJ's wheel base, and good skids, I'd say you have a decent shot of making it out of the creek, hard to say on the exit. The skids will prevent any damage, so you should certainly give it a shot.

35/37's for tires is a bit of an overestimate by trail damage. I'm on 33's with no lift other than a saggy rear end fix, and I only found issue at the creek. You will be fine.

I would love to run this again with the club.

MDH33
08-05-2008, 08:17 AM
I just read a Sept. '07 report just now from Trail damage wiht pictures and it looked like 35s or 37s are standard issue for this trail?


Time for more upgrades already. :D

Tch2fly
08-05-2008, 08:17 AM
Could this be that much harder then Rubicon? I better read up a bit more.



French Creek is just like Rubicon ... if the creek was 12 miles long ;)

Seriously the creek crossing is no worse than the obstacles you encountered on the 'Con. I would say that the lines are less obvious than some places. You can get through on 33's but winching should be expected. I did in my 80 on 33's and never touched sheet metal but beat up my rear driveshaft pretty good. I've also seen guys locked on 35's need a tug so don't be ashamed to pull cable.
The rest of the trail is very mild in comparison. Cleveland rock is pretty nasty but is completely optional if your only goal was to reach Holy Cross City ruins.

AxleIke
08-05-2008, 08:54 AM
There are few other spots that are a little bit tougher than mild. Nothing the FJ can't handle for sure, but its not an easy trail.

Tch2fly
08-05-2008, 09:52 AM
There are few other spots that are a little bit tougher than mild. Nothing the FJ can't handle for sure, but its not an easy trail.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough when I said "the rest of the trail is mild in comparison" I meant to Rubicon. I really don't mean to minimize your opinion but every trail holds a different experience for every driver.:thumb:

IMO
I don't mean to say HC is an "easy" trail but other than the French creek and Cleveland Rock the other obstacles are only moderately technical ... meaning there aren't multiple lines that are "vehicle/wheelbase specific" or contain a high level of danger (roll-overs near long drops, etc.).

Yes, the ledge prior to FC can be run multiple ways depending on how tough you want it to be but that is up to the driver and the vehicle (the first time up was in my open-diff 80 on 33s and I walked up the right side without spinning a tire .... a short wheel base rig is certainly different)

AxleIke
08-05-2008, 10:59 AM
Ah. Didn't realize it was in reference to the rubicon. Thought you meant in general to colorado trails.

Yes, this trail would be, as I said before, much easier than the rubicon.

Uncle Ben
08-05-2008, 11:36 AM
Ah. Didn't realize it was in reference to the rubicon. Thought you meant in general to colorado trails.

Yes, this trail would be, as I said before, much easier than the rubicon.

As a rule of thumb and personal experience it's not good to build confidence by thinking a tough trail is easier than another tough trail. The difficult sections of Holy Cross are on par with many obstacles on the Rubicon. The creek crossing is often the biggest challenge but like the Rubicon it can be negotiated dent free with a light right foot, good spotting and patience. Like Rubicon many places on the trail that seem relatively easy can still bite you if you drop your guard. Mike, your 80 and your skills will shine and you will really love HC! Great trail and extremely beautiful! I really want to go on this run too....my time slots are so finite right now it's gonna be amazing if I can pull it off!

Cleveland rock is a great obstacle if you have two lockers. Long wheel base helps with the climb but hurts with some of the tight maneuvering. Doable but very challenging if body damage is not an option!

Tch2fly
08-05-2008, 12:29 PM
As a rule of thumb and personal experience it's not good to build confidence by thinking a tough trail is easier than another tough trail.

Great minds ;).... I had been composing a post along these same lines.

It is always misleading to say a trail is "like" another or that it is more or less difficult because as I said before "...every trail holds a different experience for every driver."
Is HC difficult? Sure can be, running it wet vs. dry is vastly different. Is it harder than Chinamans, Spring Creek or Iron Chest? the correct answer is "it depends". (Is it easier than Carnage BV or Indy? HELL yes :hill: ) but the problem is we are comparing apples & oranges (and coconuts ;) )

I will give trail advise but try to base it on known quantities ... experience levels or vehicle equipment ... not just trail vs. trail. For Chris I can try to base it on our mutual experience on Rubicon.


I don't find it exceptionally difficult prior to the creek. Yes, you can get in trouble if you let your guard down. It is more similar to Rubicon than most Colo trails because there are few "easy" sections ... i.e. places to relax and look away from the trail. Doesn't mean you are always climbing a 3' ledge or on an off-camber descent but there are spots that require a thoughtful approach (hence my "moderately technical" description) just pay attention and treat it with respect.

I have run it multiple times and really enjoy it. I have never tackled the creek with lockers on 35s so this year will bring me a "different experience" :D:confused::thumb:

Uncle Ben
08-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Great minds ;).... I had been composing a post along these same lines.

It is always misleading to say a trail is "like" another or that it is more or less difficult because as I said before "...every trail holds a different experience for every driver."
Is HC difficult? Sure can be, running it wet vs. dry is vastly different. Is it harder than Chinamans, Spring Creek or Iron Chest? the correct answer is "it depends". (Is it easier that Carnage BV or Indy? HELL yes :hill: ) but the problem is we are comparing apples & oranges (and coconuts ;) )

I will give trail advise but try to base it on known quantities ... experience levels or vehicle equipment ... not just trail vs. trail. For Chris I can try to base it on our mutual experience on Rubicon.


I don't find it exceptionally difficult prior to the creek. Yes, you can get in trouble if you let your guard down. It is more similar to Rubicon than most Colo trails because there are few "easy" sections ... i.e. places to relax and look away from the trail. Doesn't mean you are always climbing a 3' ledge or on an off-camber descent but there are spots that require a thoughtful approach (hence my "moderately technical" description) just pay attention and treat it with respect.

I have run it multiple times and really enjoy it. I have never tackled the creek with lockers on 35s so this year will bring me a "different experience" :D:confused::thumb:


Oops......skimming through e-mails will get you everytime! Mike, sorry for the reply to you rather than Chris who asked. Chris, remember what Robbie taught you and then just drive! ;) :thumb::thumb:

AxleIke
08-05-2008, 03:36 PM
I specifically said that I hadn't done the rubicon, but that I would imagine HC to be an easier trail. Judging by UB's and others reports of the Rubicon.

Is it relative? Sure. I drive a stock IFS truck on 33s. I find HC to be a difficult trail. The OP has an IFS FJ cruiser on 33's with 3" of lift. If he drove a dang buggy I would have given a different response.

I reported how the trail went for our group. Everyone in the group who had run it before said it was a lot harder this year, due to the exit being so restricted.

I fail to see the issue here. I'm not looking to fight about it, so to the OP, my apologies if my posts were miss leading or gave you an improper impression. I'm 99% positive you will love and enjoy this trail.

Happy Trails!

wesintl
08-05-2008, 03:52 PM
.

Romer
08-05-2008, 03:55 PM
This is looking like a fun event. Looks like Issac and Mike will need to sit down tomorrow night and do some shots after the meeting :D

You guys are pretty much saying the same thing and there is no issue, just a lot of wanting to "clarify".

Romer
08-05-2008, 04:02 PM
I am thinking after the Shots at Hops, Mike and Issac can break out in a duet and sing;

I feel pretty,
Oh, so pretty,
I feel pretty and witty and bright!
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me tonight.

I feel charming,
Oh, so charming
It's alarming how charming I feel!
And so pretty
That I hardly can believe I'm real.

See the pretty girl in that mirror there:
Who can that attractive girl be?
Such a pretty face,
Such a pretty dress,
Such a pretty smile,
Such a pretty me

Tch2fly
08-05-2008, 04:27 PM
The flight instructor in me always seeks to clarify when there seems to be doubt about my statement or position :o

I posted once to respond to Issac and once to respond to UB.

I was not trying to challenge anybody's beliefs about the difficulty of that trail I only want to clarify the hows and whys of my position while relating it to something Chris has experienced. My response should in no way diminish someone else’s experience or be taken as dismissive of their opinions. :cheers:

Caribou Sandstorm
08-05-2008, 05:16 PM
Ok that picture of Oppie, is definately me reading all this great info with eyes wide open. I can't believe I get it all for free.

My other FJC buddies will listen to me and think I am wise beyond my driving years....Where were you guys when I was single????...."You see Chris, even though she said go ahead and go, what she really means is no stay..."

Seriously, I really appreciate all your input. The last thing I want to do is get in over my head and demo my rig because I did not do my homework. So I appreciate your comments.

See you tomorrow, 1st round on me.

Uncle Ben
08-05-2008, 07:15 PM
Ok that picture of Oppie, is definately me reading all this great info with eyes wide open. I can't believe I get it all for free.

My other FJC buddies will listen to me and think I am wise beyond my driving years....Where were you guys when I was single????...."You see Chris, even though she said go ahead and go, what she really means is no stay..."

Seriously, I really appreciate all your input. The last thing I want to do is get in over my head and demo my rig because I did not do my homework. So I appreciate your comments.

See you tomorrow, 1st round on me.

Free? Dude....you have no idea of how much the info you get here has cost someone! ;) :bowdown::risingsun:

AxleIke
08-05-2008, 10:07 PM
Ha! no hard feelings here. I almost never get my feathers ruffled by this club. :risingsun

I think we both were just defending our positions and saying roughly the same thing.

No harm done, I just usually put disclaimers in my posts because sometimes they seem blunt and argumentative, when they aren't. I put the extra in so that my "tone" is conveyed as well.

Cheers! :D

Romer
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Does this mean there will be no singing?

Adam Sandler did it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loWrI1FneSM

DaveInDenver
08-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Now guys, y'all are forcing me to play the hole card.





















10119

Cheeseman
08-06-2008, 11:09 AM
West Side Story is one of my all time favorite movies. BUT.....I have a real hard time imagining Ken singing that song in a falsetto voice. Just wouldn't be the same.

And yes Holy Cross is a great trail. Haven't done it in awhile. The creek and other obstacles seem to change from all the talk. It is a trail a good wheeler with a competent rig should have under there belt someday. But it will teach you things.
________
Pornstars alida (http://www.****tube.com/categories/840/alida/videos/1)

AxleIke
08-12-2008, 12:49 AM
Chris, here are a few shots of me in the creek that I just received from another attendee.

Heading in:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2657.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2656.jpg

Going up:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2654.jpg

Almost there:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2661.jpg

Climbing out:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2669.jpg

Like, bummer, dude:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/AxleIke/DSCF2671.jpg

I'll also plug for CO2 set ups. We had the bead reset in 5 minutes. MUCH easier than changing the tire in that spot.

Red_Chili
08-12-2008, 09:41 AM
HC is a great trail. I have taken all my elk in that area.

My hunting buddy did the creek in a stock YJ, no lift, stock gearing, 33s, open both ends. Just sayin'.









He's been wheeling a very long time though. I needed lockers, but then, I took a harder line.

AxleIke
08-12-2008, 09:45 AM
I don't think his YJ could do it any more. Not trying to bash or in any way diminish him, but buggies on 44's do interesting things to trails.

Red_Chili
08-12-2008, 10:06 AM
His YJ is now lifted, locked, geared, and he is considering 35s... money in the bank does interesting things to Jeeps.

:lmao:

Caribou Sandstorm
08-12-2008, 10:58 AM
Wow Great pictures.. The young guy in the dark blue t-shirt and blue jeans looks familiar, I think he has a white mini and ran with us at Cliff Hanger during the CM event.

Coyote John
08-19-2008, 10:45 AM
Here is Cleavland Rock 2 weeks ago (just above Holycross city)

MDH33
08-19-2008, 10:50 AM
Welcome to the forum John. :thumb:

So did you make it up that without using the winch? :eek: :D

Coyote John
08-19-2008, 01:32 PM
No, I ended up backing back down, it had been along day and we all decided it was time to head home!

Coyote John
08-19-2008, 01:45 PM
Here is a picture of the Saloon at Holycross City 1956! The frame is still there, but that's all. The other picture is of a Jeep CJ3a 1953 model. I was told there was a bridge over French Creek back then.

Red_Chili
08-19-2008, 01:57 PM
And there were a number of roads all over in the surrounding Wilderness area. Hiking through the woods while elk hunting, I stumbled across a few. They are even closed to ANY use whatsoever. Yeah, roads. Which seems a bit confusing, inasmuch as Congress defined Wilderness as 'untrammeled by man'. Untrammeled my *&(^$. Just an opportunity to close it.

Oh. Maybe women built the roads? Huh. Didn't think of that.