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View Full Version : Rebuild starter myself or have someone else do it?


ColoradoLC
08-18-2008, 08:41 PM
I'm in the middle of my carb rebiuld on my 60 and find out from my wife that the 80 is having trouble starting sometimes. Based on the occasional issues and clicking with no turnover, I suspect the solenoids need replacing. I've done some checking on 'Mud and it seems that is the most likely case at least.

With that in mind, I think I could tackle this, but I have a queue of car repairs to do, so I am on the fence about taking it to someone to rebuild and just be done with it since I am already trying to get the 60 back in action.

Where can I source solenoid parts for the OEM starter locally? Would the dealer carry those or should I just get them from CDan?

Are any reputable places in the Centennial/South Denver area that you folks might recommend?

Thanks!

Winston

nakman
08-18-2008, 08:56 PM
Not a bad job to do yourself, pulling the starter is the hardest part, getting the right combination of extensions, etc. But if you haven't done it before, figure half a day. You can get the parts from any Toyota dealer.

If you want a shop to do it, I'd suggest Alatao Auto in Aurora (Irbis Offroad?).. Oleg knows exactly what to do and could do it quickly, send a PM to Irbis...

you could also PM Squishy here on the forum..

Red_Chili
08-18-2008, 11:04 PM
The contacts in question should run you less than $20. Or you could pay well north of $100 like a friend of mine, with 95% of the job still having to be done. It ain't hard.

Shark Bait
08-19-2008, 12:03 AM
Toy Car Care off Arapahoe Rd.

corsair23
08-19-2008, 12:40 AM
If I can do it you can do it :hill:

Get the # off your starter to insure you get the right parts (2 different starters on 80s out there apparently) when you call/go in and get them.

As for the starter itself, I wrestled with trying to get the front bolt off and then hit MUD where I found a thread that stated you CAN get a 1/2" impact wrench up in there. It is a tight fit but sure enough, one will fit :) - Makes getting the bolts (front and rear) off and back on super easy. I removed my starter when I was replacing the PHH as it makes a huge difference in the amount of space you have to get to the PHH. I would do the PHH at the same time if you can and assuming you haven't replaced the PHH yet.

Basically for the starter you take off the DS tire, remove a couple of the "skirts", remove the two bolts, do the rebuild paying attention to how everything goes, and then put the starter back in. IIRC it took me less than an hour to actually rebuild the starter (I'm pretty slow) and maybe about 1/2 that to remove and reinstall the starter (once I enlisted the aid of the air gun). Add some time for lifting the rig, taking the tire off, etc.

Per the FSM you are supposed to put like 300lbs of pressure (or some insane # like that) on the contacts when you are replacing them to insure they sit flat and stay in place. I used the suggestion I found in the MUD thread which is to use a piece of wood and put all of your weight on the wood and push down on the contacts while tightening the bolts. It has been 4 months and no issues so I guess it worked.

BEFORE you go through all this though you may want to first insure the cables to the starter are on there tight just for kicks and grins :D - Might be that simple of an issue as Radar found out.

ColoradoLC
08-19-2008, 08:15 AM
Thanks guys. I think I am going to tackle this one myself. Good idea to take the part # in to get the right solenoid.

Corsair, thanks for the tips. I didn't see those on Mud yet, but I'm sure I'll find them before I get started. Yours may be enough. It sounds like if I can rebuild a carb, I should be fine with it, but I like hearing about the tricks before I start, so thanks.

nuclearlemon
08-19-2008, 10:16 AM
easy thing to do...treeroot and i did both ours the other day and the hardest part was getting the starters off.

corsair23
08-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Corsair, thanks for the tips. I didn't see those on Mud yet, but I'm sure I'll find them before I get started. Yours may be enough. It sounds like if I can rebuild a carb, I should be fine with it, but I like hearing about the tricks before I start, so thanks.

Here is the procedure I followed (along with the FSM of course :))

http://www.george4wd.taskled.com/starter.html

It was a link in one of the MUD threads (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/159392-rebuilding-starter.html) I came across and it is also the page that is linked to from the 80 Series FAQs on MUD (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/84888-faq-80-lx450-july-24-2008-added-lspv-modification.html)

If you are in a hurry to just get the starter rebuilt and don't have time for the PHH (or even the fuel filter while you're in there :hill:) at least give the PHH a good look over to see if it looks like it can go for a lot longer or if you are on borrowed time. No better time to get a good look at it than when the starter is out of the way :thumb:

ColoradoLC
08-19-2008, 11:47 AM
Good point about the PHH. I should take care of that too. If I ask for a PHH at the local dealer over on Broadway, will they look at me funny? Does it have an official name besides Pesky Heater Hose?

Looks like I am really going to be getting some good quality garage time in this week.

corsair23
08-19-2008, 01:19 PM
Good point about the PHH. I should take care of that too. If I ask for a PHH at the local dealer over on Broadway, will they look at me funny? Does it have an official name besides Pesky Heater Hose?

I'm sure it has an official name (lower heater hose maybe?) but I don't know what it is off the top of my head. If you are talking about Burt over on Broadway then I bet Joe probably knows about it or can find it for you with no problem.

Many folks (like me) have gone with this kit --> http://www.1fzfephh.com/

The kit is more expensive but worth it IMO knowing you should NEVER have to replace it again :D. Many people just source the stuff in the kit locally at a NAPA etc. At current gas prices though it is getting cheaper to shop from home than drive all over the place collecting parts for me...I have another kit that I plan to use on the :Princess:'s 80 someday that if you get in a bind you're welcome to use and just replace with another kit when it arrives.

Anyway, there are a ton of threads on MUD about replacing the PHH, what people have found to work well, what to avoid (like the knock sensor), etc. I warn you though that if you throw the PHH in with the starter rebuild plan on a full day just in case unless of course the stars and moons all align for you on that particular day :hill:. - I would also encourage you to read as many of the threads as you can stand and print out any that have good tips.

I did mine PHH replacement during a full coolant hose replacement, coolant flush, starter rebuild, etc. marathon session. If you don't have a full day, possibly two, to let the 80 sit while you work on it then I would just eyeball the PHH when you do the starter rebuild. It may be fine. I had planned to replace mine regardless just for piece of mind. Honestly the old one looked to be in good shape (had ~105K miles or so on it) other than the dremel marks and pieces pulled off getting it out. I believe it was the original PHH as it had the sardine clamp and the compression clamp orientation could ONLY have been put on that way with the engine out of the rig :eek:. I drained my coolant as I planned to flush my system and put in all new coolant so I don't know if you can replace the PHH with minimal leakage or not :confused:.

Replacing the PHH isn't a technical challenge, more of a physical one. There is very little room to work and just getting the old hose off and the new hose on can be difficult (pick up some lube to aid in getting the new hose on :thumb:). There are items that you can loosen/remove that make the job easier (like the hard down pipe, AT dipstick tube, etc) but even those can be a pain to loosen/remove without the right tools (I could only get to the lower bolt on the hard pipe for instance), etc. Most people, like I did, end up cutting the old hose off with a dremel and cut off wheel. I found that you can pound the center pin of the sardine clamp out (assuming the PHH is original) to aid in getting that one off. Depending on the orientation of the compression clamp you may have to cut that one off (like I did) if you can't get a pair of pliers in there. Plan to cuss quite often, get frustrated often, take breaks, etc. which only adds to the total time.

Many consider replacing the PHH a right of passage to 80 ownership. If I were you unless you PLAN to do it anyway, I would just eyeball it and see what it looks like. Pulling the starter a second time is cake compared to replacing the PHH and some people replace the PHH without removing the starter (so I've read) although that must make it even more of a PITA.

Good luck :cheers:

ColoradoLC
08-19-2008, 04:07 PM
Damn Jeff, you are bound and determined to give me more work to do aren't ya? :D

I really like the Samco hoses and plan to replace my Passat hoses with them when they wear out, but they just keep going and going.

I'd like to get the PHH done with the started this week, so I ordered one and we'll see if I can get it done by Sunday, when a buddy with a bitchin Scrambler (*yep a Jeep*) and I are going up to Chinns Lake with the kiddos to play.

Sounds like I need to pick which vehicle I want to take: the 60 (and get the carb rebuilt) or the 80 ( and rebuild the starter and replace the PHH). Wish the Passat was lifted, but it's lowered...heheh.

Thanks once more for all of the helpful info!
Winston

Rzeppa
08-19-2008, 04:58 PM
As Bill mentioned, there's a high likelihood it's simply worn contacts. I had that problem with the starter in the 1HZ in my HZJ75. Replacing them was super-easy, R&Ring the starter itself was more work than replacing the contacts. The contacts themselves were free - Deon (no longer there) at Mountain States Toyota just gave me a pair of every Toyota starter solenoid contact he had. I found a pair that were close, a little grinding with the Dremmel and presto-voila they fit perfect.

Inukshuk
08-19-2008, 06:06 PM
I also recommend the PHH kit. I got great service from the owner too.

ColoradoLC
08-19-2008, 10:26 PM
As Bill mentioned, there's a high likelihood it's simply worn contacts. I had that problem with the starter in the 1HZ in my HZJ75. Replacing them was super-easy, R&Ring the starter itself was more work than replacing the contacts. The contacts themselves were free - Deon (no longer there) at Mountain States Toyota just gave me a pair of every Toyota starter solenoid contact he had. I found a pair that were close, a little grinding with the Dremmel and presto-voila they fit perfect.

Thanks Jeff, I'll pick up a set of those from Burt Toyota tomorrow too. Even if they are okay this time around, I'm sure I'll need to replace them eventually anyway.

I'm in the middle of checking on the starter part # now. It's great getting to know a new (to me) vehicle. I like it already.

Thanks,
Winston

ColoradoLC
08-20-2008, 01:46 PM
Interesting, the guy at Burt (didn't see his name) said that he sees it is the contacts also 10/10 times. He only had one of the two in so he expects them in Friday. Apparently they don't sell solenoids separately. I thought that sounded strange.

Rzeppa
08-20-2008, 05:04 PM
Interesting, the guy at Burt (didn't see his name) said that he sees it is the contacts also 10/10 times. He only had one of the two in so he expects them in Friday. Apparently they don't sell solenoids separately. I thought that sounded strange.

Typically, the metal transfers from one contact due to DC current, making it thinner and pitted. While replacing them both "while you're in there" is a great idea, the one worn contact makes the disk which connects the two get at too much of an angle on the center shaft of the solenoid to make a good contact. Once you get it apart you'll easily see what I'm trying to put into words.

Red_Chili
08-21-2008, 09:12 AM
The solenoid is integral to the starter. Really, though, like Jeff says, once you have it apart it will all make sense. However, everything IN the solenoid is available, meaning the contacts and the plunger. So why change the solenoid, even if you could?

Be observant of how things came apart, and reassemble identically. You probably knew that, but it is easy to discover a rubber o-ring on your bench right after you get it all back together. DAMHIK.

FWIW, I have never had to replace the plunger. They were certainly pitted, but they wear evenly because they rotate, I guess. I have dressed them lightly with a file on occasion.

ColoradoLC
08-21-2008, 10:33 AM
Typically, the metal transfers from one contact due to DC current, making it thinner and pitted. While replacing them both "while you're in there" is a great idea, the one worn contact makes the disk which connects the two get at too much of an angle on the center shaft of the solenoid to make a good contact. Once you get it apart you'll easily see what I'm trying to put into words.

That's probably true. I'll replace both of them though and keep one as a spare. From what I saw of the starter diagram at Burt it looks like they are different and not interchangable.

The solenoid is integral to the starter. Really, though, like Jeff says, once you have it apart it will all make sense. However, everything IN the solenoid is available, meaning the contacts and the plunger. So why change the solenoid, even if you could?

Be observant of how things came apart, and reassemble identically. You probably knew that, but it is easy to discover a rubber o-ring on your bench right after you get it all back together. DAMHIK.

FWIW, I have never had to replace the plunger. They were certainly pitted, but they wear evenly because they rotate, I guess. I have dressed them lightly with a file on occasion.

Okay I guess I misunderstood the part and how it is integrated with the starter. I haven't taken it out yet, but I'm sure that will be obvious to me once I do.

I am not quite, but almost a freak about parts and keeping them organized during a project like this. If only I could keep my workbench as organized!

I'll pay close attention to the plunger.

Thanks!
Winston

corsair23
08-21-2008, 03:31 PM
That's probably true. I'll replace both of them though and keep one as a spare. From what I saw of the starter diagram at Burt it looks like they are different and not interchangable.


Winston,

If you look at and print out the link I posted above you'll see pictures of everything AND the pages out of the FSM that apply to what you'll be doing. The contacts ARE different so just pay attention to which one goes on which side. Just pay attention as you are taking stuff off what goes where and you'll be fine :thumb:

FWIW I replaced the plunger at the same time. Cheap insurance IMO as I don't recall it was all that much $$. I have all of my old parts though if you want any of them :hill:

If you run into any problems feel free to shoot me a PM. I'm no expert but having just done this I should be able to help and it looks like we live close to each other.

ColoradoLC
08-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Well I was able to get it done in about an hour. It's was not too bad getting the bolts on the starter off and the contacts and plunger were super easy to do.

The instructions from Slee that Jeff posted the link to were the clincher.

You guys rock!

Winston