PDA

View Full Version : 80 Series Starting Issues...


corsair23
09-09-2008, 10:57 PM
So the :Princess:'s 80 sometimes doesn't want to start...Not a slow start but a turn the key and just a click type of no start...

It looks like Romer went through the same thing recently on Sarah's LX (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html) and the symptoms were identical other than the heat. So, I figured I would start where Ken ended up and check the NSS (neutral safety switch) first. That thing is a PITA to get off btw. I guess you could take out the front drive shaft to gain more room to work but I prefer contorting, scraping, banging, etc. my arms and hands on crap :hill:

Anyway, I don't think the NSS is my issue. I even went so far as to pull the locking tab and pop out one of the starter wires and it looked great. Guess my next step is to rebuild the starter although I really figured it was going to be the NSS because the truck has always started right up, never giving the typical indications you'd expect as the starter contacts get worn. I had already checked the obvious things (battery connections, cable at the starter, etc.) before pulling the NSS.

Any other thoughts before I break out the impact wrench and get busy on pulling the starter?

Pics...The white goop is whatever Toyota puts on there I guess and it looked clean.

Shark Bait
09-10-2008, 12:58 AM
Jeff, I went straight for the starter contacts on mine a while back. No more starting issues. :D I should add I also cleaned up the battery terminals & clamps at the same time. But the contacts were pretty worn. :eek:;)

Hulk
09-10-2008, 01:35 AM
If you're getting a click, then I agree with Mr. Shark Bait.

Romer
09-10-2008, 06:55 AM
That connector doesnt look good to me. Did you try cleaning it, having someone wiggle the connector while you try and start it. I heard the click when it turned out to be that connector. It was a soft click though, not click click click which would be the starter

FJBen
09-10-2008, 09:06 AM
When my starter contacts went, it was only 1 click. not multiple. I'd go right for the starter contacts as well. Fairly cheap/easy and you know it's done and off the list.

corsair23
09-10-2008, 12:56 PM
That connector doesnt look good to me. Did you try cleaning it, having someone wiggle the connector while you try and start it. I heard the click when it turned out to be that connector. It was a soft click though, not click click click which would be the starter

You don't think the connector looks good?? Compared to your picture on MUD I thought mine looked great, basically brand new. The grayish color isn't corrosion, it is (I'm assuming) Toyota dielectric grease and it looks brand new.

When my starter contacts went, it was only 1 click. not multiple. I'd go right for the starter contacts as well. Fairly cheap/easy and you know it's done and off the list.

Yep, just the 1 click. 1 out of every 4-5 tries it'll start right up and then click. I've got the parts (like everything else I've had them for over a year :rolleyes:) so it'll only cost me the time to replace them at this point.

On a side note I got a good glimpse of the PHH on the 80 and I'm thinking that I probably better go ahead and replace that as well :rant: - I'll snap some pictures tonight for those out there interested in seeing it :)

I guess I'll find out this time around how much coolant leaks out when you don't drain it all out first.

Inukshuk
09-10-2008, 09:05 PM
Joe at Slee did my starter before CM. I was having the click symptoms. Problem solved.

corsair23
09-10-2008, 11:48 PM
Didn't have much time to work on it tonight but I got the starter out (thank God for air tools :)) so I'll rebuild it tomorrow night.

In the mean time I got a much better look at the PHH and I'm thinking it needs to go. What do you guys think? I'm wondering...any of you ever change out the PHH without draining the coolant and if so, did it make a HUGE mess or just trickle out?

I don't how folks change the PHH without taking out the starter...

.

74fj40
09-11-2008, 08:14 AM
Pull the solenoid out and apart and clean up that disc thats in there, and depending you might even be able to just flip it over. Every time you start your car that disc gets a little more corroded, and doesnt make a good connection when you try and start it.

nakman
09-11-2008, 04:15 PM
Didn't have much time to work on it tonight but I got the starter out (thank God for air tools :)) so I'll rebuild it tomorrow night.

In the mean time I got a much better look at the PHH and I'm thinking it needs to go. What do you guys think? I'm wondering...any of you ever change out the PHH without draining the coolant and if so, did it make a HUGE mess or just trickle out?

I don't how folks change the PHH without taking out the starter...

.

Whatever drains out you'll replace with new stuff... so you're either not going to make a mess, or you're going to get a clean garage floor and some new coolant. win-win!

corsair23
09-11-2008, 05:14 PM
Whatever drains out you'll replace with new stuff... so you're either not going to make a mess, or you're going to get a clean garage floor and some new coolant. win-win!

LOL

I like the way you think Tim :thumb:

Inukshuk
09-11-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't how folks change the PHH without taking out the starter... .

I don't know that but I do know that I got the PHH kit last year (Brett L Fischer [brett@brettfischer.com] and search MUD) and was very impressed. Also remember that hoses rot from the inside out and when you pull your off you'll likely be amazed at the interior deterioration.

corsair23
09-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Finally found enough time to finish up the work on the :Princess:'s 80 today...

If I NEVER see another PHH again it will be too soon :hill:. Although I must say now that I have done 2 of them, it gets easier as you learn the tricks. I still have not figured out how to get to the lower hard pipe bolt which would make the job even that much easier. This time around I removed the AT fill/dip stick tube and also figured out how to get a torque wrench in there by taking off a bracket...I also figured out that if you leave your work light resting against your air hose long enough the heat will melt through the hose causing a leak :rant:. Luckily I caught it before it exploded :eek:...I kept having visions of Hulk hopping around at Rubithon going through my head :o

There is a pic of how much coolant you can expect to lose when changing out the PHH without draining the block first. Obviously a thorough flushing and new coolant is high on my priority list after seeing what came out...For now I just replaced what came out.

FWIW the old PHH hose was leaky at the ends but otherwise looked in decent shape :rolleyes:

Pics...

.

corsair23
09-14-2008, 10:01 PM
On to the starter...

Pretty nasty and worn down. I was surprised because the truck never gave the typical symtoms that would hint to worn contacts until it started doing the one "click". The plunger was worn down to about 1/2 and the contacts themselves were pretty worn. Got it all fixed up, bolted back in, and the truck started right up. We'll see how it does this week.

In the end I had some time left so I took advantage of it and replaced my MAF with a Landtank housing and new sensor. 45 minutes later I was enjoying the mod. I rarely drive the :Princess:'s 80 so I can't comment on the improvement but hopefully next weekend I can get mine done...

Pics...

.

Hulk
09-14-2008, 10:27 PM
You rock, Jeff! Great work!

corsair23
09-14-2008, 11:26 PM
You rock, Jeff! Great work!

Thanks dude :D - Took me almost a week but hey, it isn't like I can bill the :Princess: hourly or anything :lmao:. As payment she let me fill her 80 up and returned mine to me with a 1/2 tank :rolleyes:

nakman
09-15-2008, 02:36 PM
Good work, Jeff! that's got to be a good feeling to have both of those done.

On the anti-freeze though, it looks like you're running green in the engine, but red in the bucket? How'd you do that? :confused:

corsair23
09-15-2008, 09:53 PM
On the anti-freeze though, it looks like you're running green in the engine, but red in the bucket? How'd you do that? :confused:

Nope...all red, albeit very dark nasty looking red :o

Where do you see green :confused:

nakman
09-15-2008, 10:31 PM
I thought this looked green.. sorry not one of my best jokes.:o

corsair23
04-06-2009, 12:34 AM
Bump to the top...

The intermittent start is back :mad: - Everything has been great for the last 6 months but within the last week or two the truck wouldn't start on several occasions.

The scenario this time around is no click, just nothing. Dash lights light up and all but nothing else when you try to start the 80. I was out messing with the reported blown speaker issue today and the stupid 80 wouldn't start for me the second time I tried:confused:. It started up fine the first time (I wasn't hearing any noise from the rear speakers so I thought maybe it was only happening while the 80 was running). After about 6+ times of trying, the 80 started and when I turned it off I heard a strange noise that I've never heard before, and can't describe, but I am wondering if it is the starter not disengaging?

I really don't have time for this (trying to get the LX ready for CM and with the crappy weekend weather I'm not making any headway) but until it is fixed I lose the LX to the :Princess: so she doesn't get stranded, meaning wrenching time on the LX will be even less/limited.

I did an hour of searching on MUD (again) reading threads again and thinking maybe the NSS really is the culprit (Romer mentioned last year that my NSS "connector doesn't look good") and I reread Romer's thread on MUD (link (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html)) but a post makes me think that the NSS is NOT the culprit. It states:

I confirmed that the A/T Oil Temp, Brake, and Oil Level lamps only come on when the ignition switch is in the start position and the NSS is in park or neutral. If the NSS switch is bad or disconnected, these lamps do no light up (and, of course, the starter solenoid does not get energized). It would have been interesting to see if these lamps were coming on back when you were having your problems, Ken. If they weren't, it would have definitely pointed to a problem other than the starter.

Ok...Well the 80's A/T Oil Temp, Brake, and Oil Level lamps all come on when I try to start the 80. Has anyone else confirmed the above to be true? If so, then I either really fubarred the starter rebuild on the 80 (possible) or something else is wrong with the starter and it needs to be replaced.

I'd hate to just throw $$ at the problem and buy a remanned starter but frankly I have less time than $$ right now and R&Ring the starter is one of the few things I have experience with now (after 2 PHH replacements and starter rebuilds) so I figure a couple hours and it would be replaced.

Any thoughts, obvious things I'm missing?

Oh...battery is fine...Battery contacts are fine...And the rig only has 115K miles on it :(

Right now I'm in TJ's world with the Cruisers...I'm tired of working on them and half wishing the :Princess: would consider trading in the 80 for a new vehicle with a warranty so I'd have one less "old" Cruiser to work on...

TIA and sorry for the :rant:

Romer
04-06-2009, 07:20 AM
I don't recall those lights being a problem. Not sure either way. There are two wires and I found out when either one fails that could cause the start problem. The lights mayonly be the result of one of them.

It's not that hard or expensive to replace those wires

nakman
04-06-2009, 08:14 AM
Jeff after I did my starter contacts last winter, I was reading a tip about making sure they are good and flat when you bolt the new ones on. If not then one side sticks up more than the other when you crank the bolts, and it's just as bad in 6 months as it was before you replaced the contacts. The thread was "replaced starter contacts and truck doesn't start 6 weeks later" or something like that...

I know you ran out of weekend, but I'd start with pulling that starter again and looking inside at the contacts. If one of them is a little cocked, that may be it.. heck grab a new set first just in case you don't like what you see. Not much help on the wiring stuff, sorry, but that's what I'd do. hth..

Romer
04-06-2009, 09:05 AM
An easy way to tell if its the connector on the tranny, is to have your wife try and start it and it fails. Then wiggle that connector and have her try and start it. Started everytime when we wiggled it.

corsair23
04-06-2009, 12:15 PM
Thanks guys...

I'll try the wiggle trick Ken (assuming the truck won't start) and see what I gain from that. If that doesn't pan out then I'll pull the starter and check the contacts like Tim suggests. I tried to be careful exerting pressure to keep the contacts flat (like I did on the LX which I rebuilt before the 80) but you never know...

Anything else that can go on the starters that would require a person to just get a remanned one? The threads on MUD are all over the place from contacts being the fix to it being the NSS to people just having to pony up the $$ for a "new" starter.

corsair23
04-10-2009, 10:09 PM
Jeff after I did my starter contacts last winter, I was reading a tip about making sure they are good and flat when you bolt the new ones on. If not then one side sticks up more than the other when you crank the bolts, and it's just as bad in 6 months as it was before you replaced the contacts.

Ding, ding, ding...Give that man a prize :thumb:

I was in denial that I could fubar something so simple so I of course ignored Matt's advice and looked at the starter last :doh: - Well, the score is starter 1, Jeff 0

Starter made it about 6 months since I rebuilt it in Sept '08 and the starting issues started up again in March '09.

I knew about making sure the contacts are flat and did the same thing on the 80 that I did on the LX when I replaced the contacts...I used the handle end of my rubber mallet and put as much of my weight on it while tightening the contact bolt...I guess I've lost weight between when I did the LX and when I did the 80...Yeah right :rolleyes:

So what do you guys think...Loosen up the bolt, get the contact flat and tighten it down or replaced the contacts and plunger again and start fresh? Not sure if any of the parts are salvageable but I think the pictures will make it obvious what the problem is :o - Just compare how the "new" contacts look compared to the old ones I replaced...

One good thing that came out of this is that I was able to confirm what I read on MUD about the A/T Oil Temp and Oil Level light...If they come on when you try to start the truck then most likely your Park/Neutral Position Switch or Neutral Safety Switch is good/making contact. If those lights don't come on, start there.

Pictures:

Dash lights when you first turn the key to just the "on" position:

12530


Dash lights after the airbag and ABS system pass their tests...Also this is what the dash will look like when you try to start the 80 IF you have continuity issues in your NSS connector:

12531


Dash lights when starting the 80 if the NSS continuity is good (truck started right up :rolleyes: - note the voltage drop):

12532


What my connectors look like in the 80's P/NPS or NSS (whatever you want to call it). They look new...

12533

corsair23
04-10-2009, 10:11 PM
Here are the pictures of the contacts and plunger...


Starter contacts: note the uneven wear on the large contact and the "spot weld" wear on the small contact

12534


Plunger:

12535

nakman
04-10-2009, 11:07 PM
You've already got the starter off... new parts are like $25? I'd go new, save these for trail spares. that spot weld is the money shot, glad you found it!

powderpig
04-11-2009, 06:33 AM
Or just clean them up with a wire wheel or file and call it good for a long time. I usually use a wrench to hold the inner bolt head(4 sided) and tighten the out side. The real trick is once you are done with it on the bench is to not over tighten the bolt for the main power lead and twist the contact inside after you install it.
On the bench, a lite application of silicone grease on the plunger, then push down will show how much contact you have before you put the cap back on. then just wipe ever thing good with some brakeleen on a piece of paper towel or rag.
Anyhow good luck with this, later Robbie

corsair23
04-11-2009, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the suggestions Robbie :thumb:

I stopped by Burt today and $50 later had all new parts to put in...I'm good for at least 6 months I figure :hill:

I like the silicone grease trick so I'll have to try that next time, if there is one. This is one of the easier 80 series fixes but honestly, getting those contacts flush/flat with the bottom can be a PITA. I wonder what Burt or Stevinson etc. would charge labor wise to put those in with the starter off the truck. Based on the FSM they apparently should have the perfect SSTs to make short work of this. Would be worth $20 to know you won't have to worry about them not being flush. This time around I was way OCD and checked and rechecked them to make sure (hopefully) that they were flat.

Next weekend will be the 4-6 hour oil change and lube job :lmao: - it never ends


Oh, if anyone needs some fairly new, but lightly used, starter contacts and plunger, let me know...You can have 'em for cheap :)

Hulk
11-15-2010, 12:08 AM
OLD THREAD REVIVAL:

Just replaced my starter contacts today. I have no idea if I got them flush to the bottom, since I read all of this AFTER getting it put back together and reinstalled. :(

Also, there is a shiny little ball that sits under the spring for the plunger. Does this fall out easily? I have no idea whether it's in there or not, frankly. Would it work OK without the little ball?

George's tutorial (http://www.george4wd.taskled.com/starter.html) is pretty good, but I guess I didn't read it closely.

corsair23
11-15-2010, 11:49 AM
Flush AND square is key...You'll know in 6-12 months whether you got it right :hill:

I'm 1 for 3 - First one was a success (on the LX) and the subsequent 2 (yep, I've replaced the contacts in the 80 3 times now - 3rd time I had a pro replace them :)) were failures...Go figure

As for the shiny little ball. IIRC it will fall right out if you tip the starter over with the plunger out. Assuming you didn't do that you should be ok. No idea what it does or if it is missing means the starter will fail or not...

George's tutorial IS good and where I found out that you can get a impact wrench up in there :thumb: - I discovered a couple other tricks to make it even easier to get the wrench (and torque wrench) up in there like pulling the AT dipstick and removing a brace that is conveniently right in the way...

Oh, and Robbie's tip on using some silicon grease to verify things is a good tip as well :thumb:

Hulk
11-17-2010, 12:32 AM
I have a bad feeling that little shiny ball is somewhere on my garage floor. :(

xXJasonXx
11-21-2010, 02:56 PM
coil might be bad. Also make sure the belt on the pulley for the alternator is tight and the pully is not slipping, This will cause your alternator not to re charge.