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View Full Version : Toyo MT - Snow Performance


Nay
09-29-2008, 09:47 AM
I posted this on MUD, but thought I'd reach a greater set of local opinion here.

It's time for my next set of tires. I've been running Trxus MT's for years, specifically because they are so good in the snow, as in "head and shoulders above the BFG AT in the snow", both icy hardpack and deep offroad. But I'd like to run the Toyos for the obvious reason: roundness. They are the same weight as the Trxus, so my only real concern is snow usage.

I'd particularly like feedback from anybody who has run Trxus and the Toyos (Nakman?) - just the snow part, I get the round part - and how the tires hold up to serious crawling with the center lugs aftermarket siped as well as winter performance with that siping. If the tires hold up well, and the siping brings them up to around the performance of the Trxus MT, it would be a no brainer.

Appreciate any input, I like what the Toyo has to offer and have asked about winter performance on a number of threads, but a clear answer eludes me, outside of the occasional "as good as BFG AT", which is not anywhere near good enough as I've had too many close calls, not to mention the compound freezing, with BFG AT's in the past.

Thanks :cheers:

treerootCO
09-29-2008, 10:03 AM
Subscribing to this thread.

I have decided through personal tests that the reason most people dislike the BFG ATs is that they are an amazing tire until they wear down. Most if not all will echo that they love the fact the tires last so long. That is a fact, when the good rubber is all used up, all you have left is a hard compound that seems to ice over in the cold. Great tire but they should just let them wear down to the cords instead of leaving an impression that the tire is still good because it has tread left.

The Toyo MTs will flat spot under an 80. It takes a few miles to round them back out after sitting for a week or so. I have yet to play in the snow with 'em.

Nay
09-29-2008, 10:13 AM
Subscribing to this thread.

I have decided through personal tests that the reason most people dislike the BFG ATs is that they are an amazing tire until they wear down. Most if not all will echo that they love the fact the tires last so long. That is a fact, when the good rubber is all used up, all you have left is a hard compound that seems to ice over in the cold. Great tire but they should just let them wear down to the cords instead of leaving an impression that the tire is still good because it has tread left.

The Toyo MTs will flat spot under an 80. It takes a few miles to round them back out after sitting for a week or so. I have yet to play in the snow with 'em.

I've found the BFG AT's are a completely different tire once you get to about 75% tread depth. I bought my 80 with a set of 285's with about 15K miles on them, and they were useless in below freezing temps. Had the same experience on my old rig, and never thought they were more than decent on icy hardpack (hard compound being the tradeoff for tread life).

I think they fool you with sometimes great winter performance, including almost MT performance in deep snow, followed by unexpected letdowns (freezing up, unpredictable hardpack performance across a wide range of temps), and that's exactly what I don't want. This isn't meant to be a BFG AT bashing thread, they are a good all around tire, I use them as a comparison because I know how much better Trxus are and so the BFG AT makes a good control sample since most people have experience with them. I'm in Monument and the last two winters I've had icy hardpack roads in my neighborhood for months on end (low sun angle, lots of trees) and it's really been a daily driving condition to deal with this stuff on steep hills. I've sailed right through an intersection with my minivan on Nokian Hakkas (granted they were getting worn) and never had any issue with the Trxus.

Now, the Trxus are not what they were, the first winter they were like a dedicated snow tire (in our conditions sans black ice), the second winter still very, very good, at half tread now I don't expect excellence, which is a reason I am selling them. The price for this performance, as UB will tell you, is wear. Soft and sticky, road eats 'em up and you have to stay on top of balancing big time. But I don't daily drive, so I can still get 3 years out of a set at ~20K miles.

Still, the Toyos would be a major overall quality improvement and are a great looking tire on the 80. I just don't want to make a $308/tire mistake in winter performance :eek:

nakman
09-29-2008, 10:21 AM
I think they're pretty good in snow.. to be honest I couldn't really tell a difference between the Trxus & Toyo for aired up, on-highway snow driving, from a traction standpoint. Aired down to 12 on a snow run I think the Trxus's may grip a tiny bit better. However, because the Toyos are actually round, and weighted well, they feel considerably safer at higher speeds and while braking, and for me that clinches it... I don't need a sketchy tire to make a difficult situation any worse.

I don't have mine siped though. Romer does, I think Corsair does too.. and that certainly improves highway performance with snow.. also improves chunking and wear which is why I don't do it...

Nay
09-29-2008, 10:30 AM
However, because the Toyos are actually round, and weighted well, they feel considerably safer at higher speeds and while braking, and for me that clinches it... I don't need a sketchy tire to make a difficult situation any worse.

I agree, the roundness issue detracts from the higher speed performance in all conditions - you have to run Trxus at what I would consider a near low threshold PSI to make them smoother (<33 PSI).

Hopefully Romer and Corsair will pipe in about siping, I know Ken runs at least as many trails as I do in a year of similar difficulty re: chunking due to siping.

Uncle Ben
09-29-2008, 12:11 PM
Well Nay, soon I'll be able to tell you about the KM2's in the snow. So far my ONLY complaint is on-road noise. They drive exceptionally well at all speeds whereas the Trxus oblonged at 80+ and just never felt like a good street tire (maybe because they are not? :rolleyes:) I've had my KM2's up to 110 and they still feel very stable! Wet street performance has been impressive also. Snow and ice will be the deal breaker for me as I view that as a very important quality. Rocks rock with KM2's! I only aired down to 20 on Holy Cross and as many will attest to these tires are sticky! In my opinion Toyo's are great street tires with average off-road performance. Trxus are excellent dual purpose tires with mediocre on-road performance. So far the KM2's are exceeding my expectations but snow will be the real deal for me. Stay tuned....

Romer
09-29-2008, 01:31 PM
Both BFG ATs and the Toyos are great in the snow. I have the BFG ATs on 3 trucks and the Toyos on mine. I went with the Toyos because I needed a bit more aggressive tread after wheeling at Flat Nasty.

Both tires are quite on the highway. The Toyos wear well, but the BFG ATs wear forever.

Sarah has the BFGS that were on my truck originally and they have about 50K miles on them. Still some tread left, but likely will get her new BFG ATs this winter to ensure good traction.

I did have the Toys siped when I put them on and I had no issues last two winters. When there is snow, I drive the 80. During the big blizzard of 2006 (just after I got them), my Friends had both their cars stuck in Castle rock near their house. I drove down there and pulled both the cars out driving through some pretty big drifts to get around them.

The siping has likely worn out and I have not had them re-siped, but the did great last winter as well. All I can say is where ever I wanted to go, the truck took me and I had no gripping issues.

I debated long and hard between the Toyos and the Cooper (SST or STTs?), both seemed similar and great tires. The Toyo is about 16 pounds heavier a tire though. I recommend buying them at Discount (they match anybody) so you can get them rotated for free. It takes two of them to lift the tire up on the spare carrier. Discount didn't stock them, but ordered them and had them there in 3 days.

Nay
09-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Well Nay, soon I'll be able to tell you about the KM2's in the snow. So far my ONLY complaint is on-road noise. They drive exceptionally well at all speeds whereas the Trxus oblonged at 80+ and just never felt like a good street tire (maybe because they are not? :rolleyes:) I've had my KM2's up to 110 and they still feel very stable! Wet street performance has been impressive also. Snow and ice will be the deal breaker for me as I view that as a very important quality. Rocks rock with KM2's! I only aired down to 20 on Holy Cross and as many will attest to these tires are sticky! In my opinion Toyo's are great street tires with average off-road performance. Trxus are excellent dual purpose tires with mediocre on-road performance. So far the KM2's are exceeding my expectations but snow will be the real deal for me. Stay tuned....

I'll be interested to hear on the KM2 snow performance - looks are going to deceive if they are a really good road snow tire.

Now, I'm running 5.29's and don't even run 75 for long periods of time, so high speed isn't my issue. What I want is to be able to get 15K miles into a set and still have them be round and have another good year left @ $7,500 miles per year, handle 1-2 Moab trips a year plus 3-4 Colorado crawling trips and a bunch of scenic stuff, but be very good and predictable in all snow conditions we face.

If I am honest with my real usage, I can give up a little bit on the rock side (if in fact I would even be doing so) more than any other category - the Toyo is basically the MTR in tread design with the heavier duty construction, so it's going to be a good tire. If I have to give up too much on the winter category, then I deal with the Trxus tradeoffs.

I'm trying to figure out if I can trade in that devil for the Toyo price premium, which I think will pay for itself in longevity. My gut says I will be happier with the Toyos as long as I'm not sliding through intersections on the way to preschool :hill:

Uncle Ben
09-29-2008, 01:53 PM
I have to agree with you on all points! I had to try the KM2's as they are the truly first new tread design that has been offered in a long time. I am not one to arm chair critique stuff so the only way I knew how to get a true evaluation of the Km2's was run a set. Winter performance is a biggie.....I too expect to be disappointed in the KM2.....we'll find out soon!


I'll be interested to hear on the KM2 snow performance - looks are going to deceive if they are a really good road snow tire.

Now, I'm running 5.29's and don't even run 75 for long periods of time, so high speed isn't my issue. What I want is to be able to get 15K miles into a set and still have them be round and have another good year left @ $7,500 miles per year, handle 1-2 Moab trips a year plus 3-4 Colorado crawling trips and a bunch of scenic stuff, but be very good and predictable in all snow conditions we face.

If I am honest with my real usage, I can give up a little bit on the rock side (if in fact I would even be doing so) more than any other category - the Toyo is basically the MTR in tread design with the heavier duty construction, so it's going to be a good tire. If I have to give up too much on the winter category, then I deal with the Trxus tradeoffs.

I'm trying to figure out if I can trade in that devil for the Toyo price premium, which I think will pay for itself in longevity. My gut says I will be happier with the Toyos as long as I'm not sliding through intersections on the way to preschool :hill:

Nay
09-29-2008, 02:00 PM
The siping has likely worn out and I have not had them re-siped, but the did great last winter as well. All I can say is where ever I wanted to go, the truck took me and I had no gripping issues.

I debated long and hard between the Toyos and the Cooper (SST or STTs?), both seemed similar and great tires. The Toyo is about 16 pounds heavier a tire though. I recommend buying them at Discount (they match anybody) so you can get them rotated for free. It takes two of them to lift the tire up on the spare carrier. Discount didn't stock them, but ordered them and had them there in 3 days.

Thanks, Ken. I read your thread on MUD, it's one of the better ones on the Toyo. I have a quote from Discount in the Springs for $308 + tax mounted balanced for the 315's. Decent but not great, they wouldn't match a $247 with free shipping from one of the online sites, said it was below their cost.

Sounds like those who run the Toyos are happy with them for winter, I've never heard anything bad about them, and this is a pretty safety conscious bunch. Absent any conflicting inputs, this is looking like something I'm just going to have to try if I really want to figure it out.

Thanks for the inputs :cheers:

Bikeman
09-29-2008, 02:22 PM
Stop all the nonsense talk and start lookin' at 37's:p:. You know you want to.

Nay
09-29-2008, 02:27 PM
Stop all the nonsense talk and start lookin' at 37's:p:. You know you want to.

37x12.5x17 Cooper Discover STT on FJC 17x7.5 steelies (sold by Discount Tire) you mean? :D

I probably have a buyer for my entire set with rims :bolt:

Uncle Ben
09-29-2008, 03:03 PM
37x12.5x17 Cooper Discover STT on FJC 17x7.5 steelies (sold by Discount Tire) you mean? :D

I probably have a buyer for my entire set with rims :bolt:

:thumb::thumb: :cool::)

Nay
09-29-2008, 03:52 PM
:thumb::thumb: :cool::)

And the tires are probably cheaper than the Toyo 315's :eek:.
23/32nd tread depth :eek:
Made in a 12 section mold like the Toyos with a similar sidewall design :eek:
In a 17" rim, probably much nicer on the highway than 35" Trxus :eek:
Lighter than both the Toyo and Trxus MT in a 35" :eek:
Discount Tire is giving $100 off tire/wheel combos :eek:
Would look perfect :eek:

Would they fit with only some rear inner well rubbing at full stuff with my existing bumpstops? Probably.

Bikeman wants 37's, looking for a guinea pig :hill:

Anybody know the weight of the FJC steelies vs. 80 alloys? :bolt:

Uncle Ben
09-29-2008, 04:07 PM
How is the actual height of the Coopers comparred to the Toyos which are actually pretty close to 35". You could go with 37" Mtr's as I bet they are only an inch diameter taller than your Trxus!
And the tires are probably cheaper than the Toyo 315's :eek:.
23/32nd tread depth :eek:
Made in a 12 section mold like the Toyos with a similar sidewall design :eek:
In a 17" rim, probably much nicer on the highway than 35" Trxus :eek:
Lighter than both the Toyo and Trxus MT in a 35" :eek:
Discount Tire is giving $100 off tire/wheel combos :eek:
Would look perfect :eek:

Would they fit with only some rear inner well rubbing at full stuff with my existing bumpstops? Probably.

Bikeman wants 37's, looking for a guinea pig :hill:

Anybody know the weight of the FJC steelies vs. 80 alloys? :bolt:

Nay
09-29-2008, 04:39 PM
How is the actual height of the Coopers comparred to the Toyos which are actually pretty close to 35". You could go with 37" Mtr's as I bet they are only an inch diameter taller than your Trxus!

I think the Cooper are about the same size at MTR's, and they are cheaper and have factory siping and only a 10" tread width - narrower tread is important for inner well rubbing.

37x12.5x17 on 17x7.5 Tundra rims with 1.25" wheel spacers (3/4" less backspace than stock) in the pic below. They don't "look" that big, but a 17" rim is deceptive. To me, the proportions look like the Toyo on a 16" rim, which means they are probably 36" at about 37 PSI unloaded (not mounted).

I definitely have to play quarterback to go after that one, but damn it's tempting with my 5.29's.

Uncle Ben
09-29-2008, 05:40 PM
I think the Cooper are about the same size at MTR's, and they are cheaper and have factory siping and only a 10" tread width - narrower tread is important for inner well rubbing.

37x12.5x17 on 17x7.5 Tundra rims with 1.25" wheel spacers (3/4" less backspace than stock) in the pic below. They don't "look" that big, but a 17" rim is deceptive. To me, the proportions look like the Toyo on a 16" rim, which means they are probably 36" at about 37 PSI unloaded (not mounted).

I definitely have to play quarterback to go after that one, but damn it's tempting with my 5.29's.

Dude,
I have to agree with Bikeman....what are you waiting for? Operators are standing by! ;) :lmao: Hmmmmm come to think of it....painted/powder coated steel wheels "chip" so that is absolutely perfect with your Guacamole! :rolleyes: :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

FJBen
09-29-2008, 05:50 PM
yeah I"m thinking those 37's too :)

what about the sidewalls on those coopers?

corsair23
09-29-2008, 06:43 PM
Hopefully Romer and Corsair will pipe in about siping, I know Ken runs at least as many trails as I do in a year of similar difficulty re: chunking due to siping.

Yep mined are siped despite everything I've heard about chunking. I only had the center lugs siped (of course part of the outer lugs get siped just because they overlap with the inner lugs) and I have not had any problems with chunking. Granted, I don't run major trails but the tires have been on Porcupine Rim, Poison Spider, Fins, Metal Masher, and Hells Revenge plus some local trails and have not chunked yet. Of course, my LX spends 90% of its life on the road, probably more...

I found the siped Toyos to perform better in the snow than the set of dedicated snow tires I had on my old Durango (Yokohamas). I don't know how they perform unsiped because they have been siped since day one. Currently the Toyos have about 14K miles on them and the siping is still showing so wear appears to be pretty darn good for a MT. That is a good thing with as expensive as those suckers are. :eek:

Nay
09-29-2008, 07:25 PM
yeah I"m thinking those 37's too :)

what about the sidewalls on those coopers?

Yea, gotta love those 37's. This is what happens when you are bored on conference calls, you end up with 37's :D.

I'm gonna stick with 35's this time around, looks like Toyos and I'll have them siped. I wasn't concerned about the Cooper's sidewalls, but clearly there is a reason those tires are so much lighter.

Sorry, I know it would have been good to figure out 37's on a 3.5" lift, but I gotta stay sane, money is not what it was say a couple days ago. I gotta follow on this one :eek:

Nay
09-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Dude,
I have to agree with Bikeman....what are you waiting for? Operators are standing by! ;) :lmao: Hmmmmm come to think of it....painted/powder coated steel wheels "chip" so that is absolutely perfect with your Guacamole! :rolleyes: :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

True, I could put some white under the black on the rims for when they chip :D

Tch2fly
09-29-2008, 08:56 PM
what about the sidewalls on those coopers?

I have heard negative comments about the sidewalls but I beat up my STTs on Rubicon and at Moab and they came through without a mark (but ripped out a valve stem and trashed my rims). I helped change a Toyo with a torn sidewall at the top of Pearl pass so ... :confused:

Nay
09-30-2008, 04:36 PM
I ordered the Toyos today. Boring. Safe. Just what I need right now.

Wish I woulda done the 37's, glad I didn't. Next time once I can do the 7100's.

FJBen
10-01-2008, 09:08 AM
I ordered the Toyos today. Boring. Safe. Just what I need right now.

Wish I woulda done the 37's, glad I didn't. Next time once I can do the 7100's.

you WANT the 37's...you NEED the 37's...CANCEL YOUR ORDER! :D

Great, now I have to do that.

I know the have the coopers STT's in a 37" on a 16" rim...hmmm

Nay
10-01-2008, 11:01 AM
you WANT the 37's...you NEED the 37's...CANCEL YOUR ORDER! :D

Great, now I have to do that.

I know the have the coopers STT's in a 37" on a 16" rim...hmmm

Discount told me that 325/80/16 size had been discontinued, and they were running ~$70 a tire more than the 37x17's. Meaning you could get FJC steelies plus 37x17 for about the same price as just the 37's for a 16" rim.

Question is whether a 1" spacer becomes too much in terms of flare and front well rubbing as you try to keep the 37's off the rear inner well. That's the part I didn't want to mess with, it could ultimately drive you to want more lift to tune it right, and then you are back into caster issues. I have 4" of up travel to the bumpstop in the rear on a 3.5" lift with 2" dropped bumpstops, so just dropping the stops another inch isn't viable the way it is with a 5" lift. It would have been close to working without other major mods on those narrower FJC rims, I just don't know "how" close.

In a couple years? If money allows, no question about it. I just can't get the dominos falling right now.