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Air Randy
12-15-2008, 08:41 PM
Dang it, checked the valves on #4 tonight, hoping one or both were set too tight, no such luck. 40 lbs on #4 and 90 lbs on all of the rest cold.

So, once I get the head off, who do you recommend I take it to, to get rebuilt?

I'm assuming I can get the valve job gasket kit from Toyota still?

Romer
12-15-2008, 08:45 PM
I have seen several threads were people went aftermarket only to have to replace it.

Since you have been to a meeting and event and offered to give me a check the other day (Intent to join at next meeting), but not yet voted in, we could vouch for you at Burt or Stevenson to get the club discount They sold the 2F kits 5 years ago when I needed one

Air Randy
12-15-2008, 09:29 PM
Thanks Ken, I appreciate it. Who do you recommend I send the head to to get it rebuilt?

DaveInDenver
12-15-2008, 09:45 PM
Gunn Automotive is generally where Toyota people go for machine work.

Uncle Ben
12-15-2008, 10:37 PM
Mountain High Performance (http://storefront.dexonline.com/Mountain-High-Performance) in Arvada is top notch! :thumb::thumb:

powderpig
12-16-2008, 06:06 AM
I also like Mountain High Performance and take all my work there. Both shops do great work, depends on location.

Air Randy
12-16-2008, 07:56 AM
Uncle Ben told me to try taking a hammer and beating on it before I pull the head. Well, sort of.

You have to love any technology that responds positively to a good beating!

Its a long shot but worth a try!

Uncle Ben
12-16-2008, 08:03 AM
Uncle Ben told me to try taking a hammer and beating on it before I pull the head. Well, sort of.

You have to love any technology that responds positively to a good beating!

Its a long shot but worth a try!

That is not what I told you....silly boy. There is a differance between tapping with a plastic or brass mallet and beating something with a hammer! Chassis work = Beating with Hammer, Engine work = tapping with love! :rolleyes: :lmao:

Air Randy
12-16-2008, 09:59 AM
Details, details.

Assuming the miracle of the hammer blows doesn't work and I end up pulling the head, what should I set the intake and exhaust valves to cold for the initial start up?

RicardoJM
12-16-2008, 11:46 AM
Details, details.
what should I set the intake and exhaust valves to cold for the initial start up?

I'm pretty comfortable the answer is you want the exhaust valves set to .014and the intakes to .008. It comes from a pretty reliable source (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showpost.php?p=13619&postcount=37).
The whole thread is very educating and one that I find I go back to often.

subzali
12-16-2008, 02:44 PM
hot. add a couple thousanths for cold.

Air Randy
12-16-2008, 07:17 PM
OK, I tried UncleBen's hammer remedy with no luck. What the heck, we knew it was a long shot right?

So I rigged the 100 psi air hose into the spark plug hole with the piston at TDC.

I have the carb off and #4 intake is right there by the carb mount and there was not a drop of air coming from there.

There was quite a bit coming from the exhaust, if I put my hand over the exhaust pipe I could feel it build pressure and start leaking by the muffler, so the exhaust valve is definitely leaking.

There was nothing coming from the crank case vent hole, but a real small amount coming from around the pushrods near the #4 valves. So I'm thinking burned or cracked exhaust valve and the piston/rings are probably in the same shape as the other jugs.

Question: I called Burt and Stevenson and they're telling me the head gasket is no longer available. I can get the entire valve job gasket set from JTO for $60 should I just go that route? Also, JTO sells exhaust and intake valves. Should I go ahead and get a couple of each or will the place that rebuilds my head be able to get valves?

Kenon698
12-16-2008, 07:59 PM
I'd say Mountain High performance also. That is who did my valves, head and manifold. they were great and the price was good.

Rzeppa
12-16-2008, 10:54 PM
You don't have to send your head out if you'd rather do the work yourself. It's pretty low tech. I used to send my heads out, but after I did my own this last time it was like :homer: Doh'

I have the special valve spring compressor for these heads and would be happy to loan it to you. But that's getting a little ahead of the project. Pull the head and have a look see as to what the root cause of your low compression is. If it's a burnt up exhaust valve, I may have one hanging around you can have for free, otherwise they are normally sold in sets if you have to buy new.

As far as head gaskets, that would totally suck if Toyota discontinued them. I've been buying them new from our supporting dealers for years. And while I've used after market from time to time, OEM has always been best in my experience. Same with manifold and oil pan gaskets.

Air Randy
12-17-2008, 08:41 AM
Jeff,

Back in my younger days when I did it for a living, I used to use that type of tool to tear heads down. However, we also had the tools to grind the valve seats, lap the valves not being replaced, and knurl & ream the valve guides.

I'm just thinking if I go to all the trouble to pull the head, I want to get the valve guides done, new seals, re-seat the valves and check/mill the head to remove any warp that has developed over the years.

I'm also installing a header when I put it back together, so I guess I need to get my intake machined too.

I was surprised about the parts not being available from Toyota too. But I spoke to Burt, Stevenson and GO and got the same story: They can get the valve cover gasket but head gaskets for 1974 F are no longer available:dunno:

Uncle Ben
12-17-2008, 09:18 AM
You don't have to send your head out if you'd rather do the work yourself. It's pretty low tech. I used to send my heads out, but after I did my own this last time it was like :homer: Doh'

I have the special valve spring compressor for these heads and would be happy to loan it to you. But that's getting a little ahead of the project. Pull the head and have a look see as to what the root cause of your low compression is. If it's a burnt up exhaust valve, I may have one hanging around you can have for free, otherwise they are normally sold in sets if you have to buy new.

As far as head gaskets, that would totally suck if Toyota discontinued them. I've been buying them new from our supporting dealers for years. And while I've used after market from time to time, OEM has always been best in my experience. Same with manifold and oil pan gaskets.

Jeff,
Thats fine if your just lapping the valves, cleaning everything up and replacing seals and gaskets. On an older motor with a Kazillian miles the guilds are probably oblonged and the head surface is no longer flat. Unless you have a mill and guild press tools your shadetree freshen up just will not last. Besides that it sounds like he probably has a burnt exhaust valve in #4 which means the seat might need replacement also.

I do agree with you on the easy part of freshing a head.....lapping is pretty fun actually!

corsair23
12-17-2008, 06:07 PM
Wasn't it Subzali that discovered last year you could get the head gasket from a forklift parts supplier? Not sure if that was only for a 2F though? Since I can't follow much else of this discussion that is all I have to offer :hill:

Air Randy
12-17-2008, 07:40 PM
Ricardo and I got the head off tonight. It went amazingly well, no broken bolts, etc. Looking at the head, all of the valves look OK externally. Could still be a cracked seat or something like that though.

The other thing I noticed is a discoloration between the #4 and #5 cylinder. I see it on the head gasket and on the block surface too. Iím thinking I could have had a bad head gasket leaking compression over into #5.

I did the shade tree leak down test and brought #4 piston up to about ľ below TDC and filled the cylinder with kerosene. It held the liquid for 15 minutes with virtually no leak down. All the other cylinders tested the same, so nothing obvious as far as broken piston or rings. Iím taking the head in tomorrow so Iíll learn soon enough if there are any issues there.

Ricardo also took some pictures of the suspicous area on the head.

To Ricardo I say "you rock dude":headbang: Thanks for coming all the way down to help out. And thanks for the good fellowship and conversation. Any time you need a hand or a place to work you know you are always welcome here!

Red_Chili
12-18-2008, 07:50 AM
Be sure to check your block deck, then. You may need to deck it - not the end of the world, but you may as well do a complete overhaul for not much more (if you do all the labor short of machining yourself).

Then you will have an F that produces the same earth shattering power it did when new!





Oh...

MDH33
12-18-2008, 08:18 AM
...
Then you will have an F that produces the same earth shattering power it did when new!





Oh...

:lmao: :hill:

RicardoJM
12-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Yesterday afternoon I dropped by Randy's garage to lend a hand with pulling the head from his F engine. The engine has poor compression (40 psi) in cylinder number 4. I had planned to get there at 4:00, but as it turned out the traffic kept me on the road until 4:20. When I arrived, Randy had already disconnected the radiator hoses, removed the valve cover and just finished removing the nuts from the manifold bolts. A handshake with Randy was the first order of business so the dog knew I was good people. I also took a closer look at the rear bumper Randy built and will post up some pictures in his bumper thread. The bumper really looks nice and clean.

In a couple of minutes I had my wrenching suit on and was pulling the manifolds off the block. Here is how the engine compartment looked at that time.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_starting.jpg

After removing the manifold we removed the nuts and bolts holding the valve train to the block. With the nuts and bolts off, we removed the valve train and push rods. This gave us plenty of room to use the breaker bar and impact wrench as needed to remove the head bolts. IIRC most of them came up with just the impact and those that needed the breaker were not really too much trouble. Of course there was not room for the impact wrench on the bolts furthest to the rear of the block so we used the socket wrench. Air powered tools really make this kind of work easier. I don't think I got a picture, but Randy has a coffe can (do you still call the plastic containers cans?) connected to the front bumper that holds all the nuts and bolts that were removed. This is a great system for making sure nothing goes astray. Here is the head all ready to be lifted out.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_ready_to_pull.jpg

The head is heavy and two big strong guys used to lifting heavy things together could probably lift it right up and out. Randy and an are not used to lifting heavy things together so we used the engine hoist. The head only had a hook on the back side so it took a a bit of time to find the proper bolt to be used hold the chain to the front of the block. Upon sorting that out, we moved the hoist into place and found out the stinger on the bumper would only let us get in so far, and it was not quite as far as we would like. Not really a problem, we hooked up the load levler to get some additional reach. Here is the hoist in as far as it will go before it hits the stinger.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_stinger_in_way.jpg

Working with Randy was great. His shop is set up well, warm and he knows his way around an engine. Throughout the process he would describe what we were doing, what we were seeing and how it related to troubleshooting the issue of low compression in cylinder 4. He also took time to answer other questions that popped into my mind as we were working and even took my picture as the head was coming out.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_on_its_way_out.jpg

With the head off, we spent a time looking at the block, head and cylinders to see what their condition and operation might tell us. While we didn't find a single obvious issue telling us why compression is low in cylinder 4, it looks like getting the head re-done is an appropriate next step. Even if issue is a simple as the head gasket needing to be replaced, the head job baselines the valves. Of course, it could be there is an issue with the valves over cylinder 4, in which case the head work is really needed.

Here is the engine block with the head removed. We could see the area between cylinders 4 and 5 were really different than all the other "between cylinder areas". While the old head gasket did not show obvious signs of deterioration, replacing it will be done.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_engine_block.jpg


Here is a close up of cylinders 3 and 4. It is very clear that cylinder 4 was much darker than all the other cylinders. This is consistent with what would likely happen when the fuel is not fully burned, which is likely to occur in low compression cylinders.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_closeup_3_4.jpg


With the head on the hoist, Randy went over it top and bottom looking for signs of an obvious burnt valve. None found on the bottom of the head. It could be the valves are all good, but the head will be taken in and gone through for good measure.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_bottom_of_head.jpg


and none found on the top of the head. Even though the head is being re-done, it was good to go through the inspection and understand the condition of what is being sent in.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_inspecting_top_of_head.jpg


We also did a leak down test in cylinders 3 and 4 to see if they were holding tight to the cylinder walls. They seemed to be doing ok. If there had been something obvious, the next step would likely have been having to remove the oil pan to get a good look at the internals of the engine block. Here are the cylinders with kerosene in them.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_leak_down.jpg


We also took a wire brush to clean the top of the pistons and looked for cracks. There were no obvious ones that could be seen and the pistion heads looked very good.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/randyhead/w_clean_pistons.jpg


We loaded the head into the bed of Randy's truck and it is off to the shop today. With the days work done, we jumped out of our wrenching suits and enjoyed a soda. Randy, thanks for having me over to lend a hand. I learned quite a bit and again got to see something first hand that I've wondered about.

DaveInDenver
12-18-2008, 11:15 AM
I had a similar look between #2 and #3 on my engine (#4 is on the left of my photo), with #3 piston showing signs of incomplete combustion, too. This is an indication of failure or impending failure of the head gasket, right? I didn't have quite as much difference between cylinders as Randy and since my failure was timing related, so I didn't have any recent numbers before I tore it apart.

http://www.armbrusterweb.com/public/webshots/engine/22re_009.jpg

Air Randy
12-18-2008, 05:30 PM
If you look at Ricardo's 6th photo, which is the close up of the engine block, the suspicious area is between the #4 (greasy) cylinder and #5 to the right off it. Keep in mind some of the greasiness in #4 is the result of me pumping oil in through the spark plug hole as part of the compression test process.

One question that did come up: Whats the proper way these days to dispose of anti freeze? I know I can take my used oil to Checker but what does one do with the anti freeze?

corsair23
12-18-2008, 05:55 PM
http://earth911.com/

I usually check here first...Bad news is for antifreeze Douglas County doesn't offer anywhere according to the site. I thought I recalled someone mentioning that some dealerships will take it? There was a thread in either Tech or Chit Chat discussing this awhile ago you might look up...

Edit:

Found a couple threads:

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=2590

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=4484

Air Randy
12-20-2008, 02:03 PM
I took the cylinder head to Gunn Automotive on S. Federal. They said the valves all needed cleaned up but nothing bad enough to account for the low compression on #4. The valve guides were OK too but they did replace all of the springs and keepers. They did say there was a low spot on the head that corresponded with the suspicious area on the head gasket. They felt fairly confident it was a blown head gasket and of course they milled the head nice & flat.

I decided to heck with it, and went ahead and had Gunn get piston rings, rod bearings and a head gasket for me. They were able to get everything for me from Engine Performance Warehouse (955 Decatur - approx 9th & Federal) at the same prices I would have paid from one of the mail order houses. And it's all name brand stuff, Feldpro, TRW, etc. They sold it to me for cost plus a very smal markup. Very nice folks and they did a great job, answered all of my questions, etc. So there is another source for F engine parts in town even if Toyota doesn't have it anymore.

I Gooled "anti-freeze recycling Dnever" and found several places that will take used abti-freeze free since they clean it up and re-sell it. Also turns out that my son-in-law, who manages a Big O store, will take it off my hands too.

I'll let you know how the re-ring job turns out, starting this evening.

RicardoJM
12-20-2008, 07:12 PM
That is good news Randy. Sounds like you are well on the way to the engine being better than it was before and be up in time for January 3rd:thumb:.

I was at Burt today to pick up an oil filter and they took my old anti-freeze so it can get recycled.

Air Randy
12-20-2008, 07:51 PM
OK, I popped #4 out and the rings were not broken, piston looks OK, etc. So I'm 99.9% certain it was a blown head gasket.

Red_Chili
12-21-2008, 08:09 AM
Ya know, if you are going to all the trouble to replace rings and bearings, it ain't THAT much more work to do the whole enchilada (rebore first over, or at least hone, depending on ridging).

Be double triple sure to check your block deck for absolute flatness. No shortcuts here.

Air Randy
12-21-2008, 10:09 AM
I already de-ridged and am definitely honing

Rzeppa
12-22-2008, 06:00 PM
From the photos, #4 and #5 were definitely talking to each other. Thanks for the tip on where to get parts. SOR sells them, but they are pricey.

Are you doing main bearings also or just the rod bearings? Obviously mains are a lot more work, normally yanking the whole engine, whereas the rods can be done in-situ.

Hulk
12-23-2008, 01:27 PM
I decided to heck with it, and went ahead and had Gunn get piston rings, rod bearings and a head gasket for me. They were able to get everything for me from Engine Performance Warehouse (955 Decatur - approx 9th & Federal) at the same prices I would have paid from one of the mail order houses. And it's all name brand stuff, Feldpro, TRW, etc. They sold it to me for cost plus a very smal markup.

In 1996, I used an aftermarket head gasket on my old '75 FJ40 when I rebuilt the 2F engine. Not sure what the brand was.

In 1997 (a year later), I had to do it again. The second time, I used a Toyota head gasket. There was a huge difference between the OEM and aftermarket head gaskets.

I would investigate the availability of a Toyota head gasket for your engine. Not what you want to hear after just spending the money for a gasket kit, I'm sure. But if it's available, I would use the Toyota head gasket regardless of the extra expense. All the other aftermarket gaskets will be fine to use (IMO), but the head gasket is a critical gasket.

Air Randy
12-23-2008, 06:39 PM
I checked all of the Toyota dealers in the metro area first, and was told by all of them that the head gasket is no longer available from Toyota. Given the choice, I agree, I would spend the extra bucks for the OEM version.

Hulk
12-23-2008, 11:30 PM
Oh, too bad. :o Sounds like you did your homework.

Fel-Pro is one of the better aftermarket brands, at least. Best of luck to you!

Air Randy
01-04-2009, 09:26 PM
Well, I got the old F back together today and got her to light up! I was really impressed with the JimC carb. After a major engine overhaul I only had to crank her about 15 seconds and she fired up then started idling great within 30 seconds. I tweaked the timing up a few degrees and now it seems to idle very smooth at about 700 rpm with pretty good throttle response. I haven't been able to drive it yet since my steering column is out but I'm shooting to get that done tomorrow.

There seems to be a very minor drip from the drain **** under the radiator. I took it out twice and really torqued it back in, even tried some silicone tape on the threads, still a very small drip. Anyone else have this issue?

I checked #4 just before I started it (it was 40 lbs before the rebuild) and it was 90lbs cold, same as all of the other cylinders, so thats good. I'm hoping to see an increase in compression once the new rings seat in and I check it warm.

It's a good thing I decided to pop out the pistons. All of the rod bearings looked really good except #3. The babbiting was almost totally gone down to the steel. I was able to clean the crank up with some emery cloth so hopefully it will be OK now. No idea why #3 wallered out the rod bearing the way it did and the others were OK. Maybe it developed some rust on that journal when it sat for 10 years in a ranchers field. Anyways, its been 6 months since I heard it run but I think it sounds OK. Sort of like an old John Deere tractor, some lifter noise that should clean up when I re-adjust the valves but no obvious knocking noises. I'll drain the initial fill of oil in a day or two and filter it through a cloth. Hopefully there won't be too much shiny stuff in it.

subzali
01-04-2009, 09:38 PM
excellent, sounds like your engine is running right! :thumb:

i know a year ago a head gasket for a 2F is/was still available, and that forklift suppliers are an alternate source for engine parts like that, but maybe your F.5 is different enough and it's discontinued, that's all I can offer :o

Uncle Ben
01-04-2009, 09:54 PM
Well, I got the old F back together today and got her to light up! I was really impressed with the JimC carb. After a major engine overhaul I only had to crank her about 15 seconds and she fired up then started idling great within 30 seconds. I tweaked the timing up a few degrees and now it seems to idle very smooth at about 700 rpm with pretty good throttle response. I haven't been able to drive it yet since my steering column is out but I'm shooting to get that done tomorrow.

There seems to be a very minor drip from the drain **** under the radiator. I took it out twice and really torqued it back in, even tried some silicone tape on the threads, still a very small drip. Anyone else have this issue?

I checked #4 just before I started it (it was 40 lbs before the rebuild) and it was 90lbs cold, same as all of the other cylinders, so thats good. I'm hoping to see an increase in compression once the new rings seat in and I check it warm.

It's a good thing I decided to pop out the pistons. All of the rod bearings looked really good except #3. The babbiting was almost totally gone down to the steel. I was able to clean the crank up with some emery cloth so hopefully it will be OK now. No idea why #3 wallered out the rod bearing the way it did and the others were OK. Maybe it developed some rust on that journal when it sat for 10 years in a ranchers field. Anyways, its been 6 months since I heard it run but I think it sounds OK. Sort of like an old John Deere tractor, some lifter noise that should clean up when I re-adjust the valves but no obvious knocking noises. I'll drain the initial fill of oil in a day or two and filter it through a cloth. Hopefully there won't be too much shiny stuff in it.


Very cool! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb::thumb:

RicardoJM
01-05-2009, 06:45 AM
Excellent news. I bet it feels great to hear the engine running along. I have nothing to add on the radiator leak. In the past a bit of the white pipe tape has worked for similar small leaks. Perhaps we'll see your 40 at this weeks meeting.

Uncle Ben
01-05-2009, 10:45 AM
On my FJ-62's original radiator I ended up putting a bolt with teflon tape in the petcock threaded hole as I had the same problem. What it appears happened is the draincock was previously overtightened and bent the seat.

Air Randy
01-05-2009, 10:58 AM
I suspect that is what happened in this case. The teflon tape doesnt seem to work because the liquid is seeping past the mating surfaces and comes out of the weep hole midway through the drain ****, which is before the threads. I'm going to pop it out and puckey it up with silicon on the mating surface, that should take care of it for now.

MDH33
01-05-2009, 11:36 AM
Great to hear you have it running! They DO sound like old tractor engines, even when in perfect tune you'll hear the valves clicking away.

On you radiator drip, make sure that it's not originating higher up. My 60 had a leak in the seam, but it looked like a drip from the drain because it was lower down and the coolant just tended to migrate there.

Air Randy
01-05-2009, 10:22 PM
The miracle of the old hoopty has occurred since the drip has cured itself without any intervention from me. It was definitely coming from the weep hole on the side of the drain **** before but now it has stopped. Maybe after it got good and hot a few times ot sealed itself up.

Any experienced 40 drivers willing to come down and take this thing for a test drive? I got the steering column in today and went around the block a few times. I still need to adjust the valves and tweak the timing some more.

The problem is, this is the first time I've really had this running and I have never driven an FJ40 before. I don't know if the power (or lack thereof) I'm seeing is normal and if the handling & such are what they should be.

Rzeppa
01-05-2009, 10:38 PM
The miracle of the old hoopty has occurred since the drip has cured itself without any intervention from me. It was definitely coming from the weep hole on the side of the drain **** before but now it has stopped. Maybe after it got good and hot a few times ot sealed itself up.

Any experienced 40 drivers willing to come down and take this thing for a test drive? I got the steering column in today and went around the block a few times. I still need to adjust the valves and tweak the timing some more.

The problem is, this is the first time I've really had this running and I have never driven an FJ40 before. I don't know if the power (or lack thereof) I'm seeing is normal and if the handling & such are what they should be.

Old Hoopty is not only good stuff, but that's a cool expression, I like it. I was going to suggest taking the drain plug out and doing a little sandpaper/scotchbright on the sealing surface which is the flat end.

40s aren't sports cars, but even the old stock F has a good bit of pep when tuned properly. What's your static timing advance set at? Normally these motors need a little (or a lot) more than the stock 7į BTDC, depending on carb and vacuum setup. Hopefully you had Jim set up your jets for our elevation, as he has done with mine. This doesn't make much difference in power in my experience, but does help reduce carbon deposits from over rich running, and helps greatly with fuel economy. I normally get around 15-16 MPG from my 40 series.

Air Randy
01-06-2009, 02:17 PM
Yes, JimC set it up for my 6700' elevation. I'm thinking it is a timing issue.

I have a DUI HEI distributor. For whatever reason it has a limited range of movement before it hits something. Currently, I have it turned as far as it will go counter clockwise (advanced) and that puts the white dot (I painted the 7 deg BTDC BB white) right on the pointer needle using the timing light with the vacuum line disconnected from the dizzy and plugged.

It acts like it needs more timing advance than that. I'm thinking I will just move all of the spark plug wires one position over counter clockwise in the cap. That will dial in a bunch of advance and I can back it off some since the dizzy will rotate back clockwise. Think that will work?