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Red_Chili
01-09-2009, 09:55 AM
Apparently there are a couple of BLM LEOs on a mission from God. I know the motorcycle rider posting in this post, and he is far from a scofflaw. I believe his words.

Despite the fact he is a practicing lawyer in the real world. :lmao:

Ooops! Inukshuk, I mean no disrespect!! :eek: :lmao:

Something to make participants aware of, to avert any issues. Until recently, the "Cloud9" he speaks of also worked for the BLM.

AdventureRider post on Moab BLM LEO harrassment (http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8777643&postcount=119)

Hulk
01-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Apparently there are a couple of BLM LEOs on a mission from God. I know the motorcycle rider posting in this post, and he is far from a scofflaw. I believe his words.

Something to make participants aware of, to avert any issues. Until recently, the "Cloud9" he speaks of also worked for the BLM.

AdventureRider post on Moab BLM LEO harrassment (http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8777643&postcount=119)

Sounds bizarre. We'll talk to the BLM in advance about this to make certain everything is still the same.

What is an LEO? I am abbreviation illiterate.

DaveInDenver
01-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Sounds bizarre. We'll talk to the BLM in advance about this to make certain everything is still the same.

What is an LEO? I am abbreviation illiterate.
Law Enforcement Officer

wesintl
01-09-2009, 10:30 AM
Interesting...

Maybe they are targeting bikes. They do have the ability to travel off trail alot easier.

Jacket
01-09-2009, 10:40 AM
Could be a volume issue, with the population explosion in this part of the country. Maybe they've decided they need to step of enforcement because of the sheer number of vehicles that travel to Moab. Or could be an isolated incident with a BLM officer having a bad day....

Red_Chili
01-09-2009, 01:08 PM
Both Unaweep and Cloud9 had similar experiences, so it wasn't just a bad day and they were treated so rudely as to make me think it wasn't just because of the number of the vehicles. The guy was sitting in camp for pities sake, and he gets threatened with confiscation when he hasn't done anything?

:confused:

Like I say... mission from God... :rolleyes:

Hulk
01-09-2009, 01:32 PM
Both Unaweep and Cloud9 had similar experiences, so it wasn't just a bad day and they were treated so rudely as to make me think it wasn't just because of the number of the vehicles. The guy was sitting in camp for pities sake, and he gets threatened with confiscation when he hasn't done anything?

That's complete crap. These BLM guys are our employees as U.S. citizens. Unless the person was doing something that looked suspicious, they should have been treated with respect. I wonder if the BLM person thought they could "get away" with it because it was only one person. I'd like to see them harass me when I've got a big group of burly 4x4 dudes standing with me.

Red_Chili
01-09-2009, 01:46 PM
That was pretty much the reaction from the motorcycle crowd. I sure hope the BLM doesn't create the very oppositional noncompliance that they are trying to curb.

In any event, if I am treated thus, I will be compliant - but I will also ask for the LEO's badge number, his supervisor's name, HIS supervisor's name, and if possible to speak to them on the radio. And I will take notes. And pictures if necessary. We'll see if that tones it down or not.

I'd like to see them harass me when I've got a big group of burly 4x4 dudes standing with me.
It would take a lot of burly to overcome a 1911 .45ACP.

Bruce Miller
01-09-2009, 06:07 PM
I would hate to see you guys, or anybody at CM09, get into trouble with a federal agent. A couple of burly dudes, or a 45, donít help, either. Remember, too, when you appear in court, the only thing that counts is what the LEO says. And, the judge will always side with the LEO. After you put the kids to bed tonight, fire up the computer, get on YouTube and go to ďBusted: The citizenís guide to surviving a police encounter.Ē Itís 45 minutes long, but it could be difference between protecting your 4th Amendment rights as opposed to wishing you hadnít given up those rights.

And speaking of CM09 in Moab, UT, keep in mind that LEOís in Utah, Texas, and Arizona, in an effort to reduce costs in DUI cases, have done away with the breathalyzer. Officers are now permitted to draw blood to prove drivers are drunk.

Red_Chili
01-09-2009, 07:57 PM
FWIW, the 1911 .45ACP I referenced would be the LEO's, not the burly dudes'... :lmao:

Hulk
01-09-2009, 11:16 PM
Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.

Uncle Ben
01-09-2009, 11:49 PM
Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.

Ego monsters could care less if it's 1 or 20. 20 give them a bigger audience when they beat the chest with both fists! :rolleyes:

Inukshuk
01-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Despite the fact he is a practicing lawyer in the real world. :lmao:
Ooops! Inukshuk, I mean no disrespect!! :eek: :lmao:

Tease us till you need us..... :rolleyes:

Bruce Miller
01-11-2009, 09:48 PM
I wonder if the LEO came across someone from one of the NGO's, say, The Nature Conservancy or The Sierra Club, if their attitude would be different that it would be with a 4 wheeler, quad, bicyclist, or motorcycle. I think the rules of the game are different, depending on the players.

Red_Chili
01-12-2009, 08:36 AM
No evidence to back it up, but I would put money on it.

DaveInDenver
01-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.
You need to be respectful and courteous, but also don't forget you have rights. Be forceful, honest and don't get bullied. There are plenty of police and LEO who are on power trips and will try to bend the rules to their advantage.

Remember some points when interfacing with police.

Never, ever, ever be confrontational. Be polite; remember 'Yes sir', 'No sir', 'Thank you sir' in even tempered voice.
You NEVER have to submit to a search of your vehicle or property without a warrant. But if they see something in plain view or you say something, then that can give them probable cause. Keep your personal junk stowed and out of view and just answer their questions briefly. Don't ramble, tell them the story or try to explain. Answer only specific, pointed questions. You must tell them your name, address and your birth date. You have to give them registration, permits (like BLM or USFS) or legal documents as such to show your right to be where you are. Nothing else needs to be offered or asked. As of today you still don't have to prove your innocence and citizenship. They don't have the right to make you prove anything for them.
You can NEVER be detained without a reason (however probable cause is a very vague exception) and during a civil or ordinance violation (such as traffic violations, loud music, open containers in camp, whatever) they have no probable cause to search you or your vehicle unless you give them one. For example, if you are sitting in camp in Utah and there is a law against out-of-state beer, they can only write you a citation and that's it. The act of violating an ordinance does not give the cop any additional inherent right to search you or your truck without a warrant and probable cause.
In that vein, ask directly if you are charged with a crime or being arrested, if not then ask to end the exchange (ask to be allowed to leave or be left alone). Ask "Am I free to go?" The response is yes or no. Unless it's no with a specific reason, then you may legally go. But even if that's the case, don't leave if doing so would provoke or escalate the encounter. Always be polite.
You never have to answer anything without a lawyer if you don't want. Anything you say after being advised of your rights is open for use against you, so don't say anything beyond yes, no, thank you.
NEVER physically resist detention or search. Rather say in no uncertain terms that you do NOT submit to this wrongful arrest, detention, search, particularly without an attorney. Presenting a threatening situation, verbally abusing, presenting a physical safety problem, etc. to a LEO is the fast lane to conflict.
If the cop will not remain within his legal bounds, ask for his sergeant, supervisor, etc. to be called in. You always have the right to ask for that, although doing so will raise the encounter tension. But asserting your right could be the difference between being unlawfully hauled into the precinct or charged with some stupid petty crime. Never let them push you into something to make it easier or quicker. That's exactly why they push the limit, so they can skate on a technicality rather than going through the pains to get a warrant. If you say OK to a search, then they don't need a warrant. That Federali in Moab probably assumed that being in the middle of nowhere would prevent that, but even he has a supervisor. If that means getting him or her out of bed and driving 100 miles at 2AM or getting a warrant from a judge 40 miles away in town, you still have the right to ask for it.

The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are not field negotiable. Exercise them.

http://www.flexyourrights.org/
http://www.policecrimes.org/

treerootCO
01-12-2009, 10:54 AM
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the member's only section. Rising Sun probably doesn't need to publicly voice their opinion that we are for, or against, the authority working in the fine state of Utah.

DaveInDenver
01-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the member's only section. Rising Sun probably doesn't need to publicly voice their opinion that we are for, or against, the authority working in the fine state of Utah.
Maybe, but I don't think anyone is questioning the authority to enforce the laws. Just that their authority is still clearly limited by your Constitutional rights. I've been 'profiled' as a neo-hippie in my old white Toyota truck with mountain bikes on top and CU alumni plates. I'm generally a law abiding fellow and don't go out of my way to make their job hard (gosh knows a 22R-E can't seriously break speed limits). But the system from the top down is being streamlined to make violations easier to enforce, judges rarely deny warrants, the word of the police is unquestioned, the laws are written to make enforcement and punishment easier. You have to actively exercise your rights to keep them.

Bruce Miller
01-12-2009, 05:09 PM
Go to Busted: The citizen's guide to surviving police encounters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA) and watch the video. This information is all about protecting our 4th Amendment rights. It's useful information, regardless of which state you're in.

The respectful and non threatening video appears to be professionally produced, something that should be shown in a high school civics class.

Crash
01-12-2009, 05:50 PM
I wonder if the LEO came across someone from one of the NGO's, say, The Nature Conservancy or The Sierra Club, if their attitude would be different that it would be with a 4 wheeler, quad, bicyclist, or motorcycle. I think the rules of the game are different, depending on the players.

Bruce, why do you think that would be the case? I would guess that more LEOs are of the pro land use mindset rather than being of the treehugging school, wouldn't you?

Mendocino
01-12-2009, 08:58 PM
Go to Busted: The citizen's guide to surviving police encounters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA) and watch the video. This information is all about protecting our 4th Amendment rights. It's useful information, regardless of which state you're in.

The respectful and non threatening video appears to be professionally produced, something that should be shown in a high school civics class.

Bruce,

This was good. A nice review!

Inukshuk
01-12-2009, 11:46 PM
I wonder if the LEO came across someone from one of the NGO's, say, The Nature Conservancy or The Sierra Club, if their attitude would be different that it would be with a 4 wheeler, quad, bicyclist, or motorcycle. I think the rules of the game are different, depending on the players.

Every time I have met an officer in Utah they have been great. On the most recent Outlaws Run we met a Ranger in the Dollhouse area. She was very nice and appropriately said "slow down" when the sound of one guy's V8 as he rounded a corner amplified the appearance of speed (a very nice and responsible member of our group who just picked the worst possible time to go a bit fast on a sandy road). Later on the trip she gave a guided tour of the Grand Gallery.

A few years back we met an Emery County Deputy who was not only super nice, but completely advocating that roads stay open. As you know, some of the locals out there don't want the federal government telling them what to do.

The members of this club are much more conscientious and responsible campers than most other people I know and I think the officers we meet on the trail can sense that.

PS. I'm not licensed to practice in Utah so y'all are on your own out there!

Red_Chili
01-13-2009, 07:23 AM
Bruce, why do you think that would be the case? I would guess that more LEOs are of the pro land use mindset rather than being of the treehugging school, wouldn't you?
I will chime in. I would say this would not be the case, for a simple reason: they see all the abuses, but few of the responsible recreationists doing things the right way. That's what they get called out to correct.

About the 18th time I saw someone tear across virgin crypto on their ATV past signs clearly marking the trail, I might adopt the same mindset.

Keep in mind that the LEO encounters at the top of this thread were guys who went after OHVers who were doing nothing wrong at all - sitting in camp for pitie's sake. That is the line they shouldn't cross.

This thread is by no means opposing BLM enforcement actions and LEOs in general. Without them we would lose it all. But forewarned is prepared.

nakman
01-13-2009, 08:22 AM
PS. I'm not licensed to practice in Utah so y'all are on your own out there!

now you tell me. Last night I watched that "busted" video too, and was all ready to exercise my 6th amendment rights while out in Utah... :o

man wish I would have seen that video 15 years ago... :perry:

Bruce Miller
01-13-2009, 06:00 PM
What are you planning on doing in Moab?

I think the 6th Amendment has to do with: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial... before am impartial jury in the state where the crime shall have been committed...

nakman
01-13-2009, 07:11 PM
True but the 6th amendment also protects my right to counsel. :...and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense."

I don't like to run Wipeout Hill without my lawyer present, he knows where all the secret tunnels are, plus he's good at flipping the burgers. :)