PDA

View Full Version : FJ80 Factory Lockers vs ARB?


LETSROLL
02-22-2009, 08:56 PM
I'd be grateful for some commentary on the question factory CDL vs going with aftermarket ARB air lockers?

I'm looking for a new 80 and see a lot of low mileage rigs for sale without CDL. Is the ARB option just as good, not as good, or better than factory?

If ARBs were as good or better than factory CDL then my list of available trucks is considerably bigger.

Thanks in advance.

LETSROLL

nakman
02-22-2009, 09:04 PM
Well to start, your terminology is a little off. 93 and up 80's are fZj's, including your 97. And CDL is center diff lock, and they all have them- it's what switches you from AWD to 4WD. So if you are looking at some and they don't have the CDL switch (shown here (http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/products_switches.htm)) that's ok, you can add that later to any model 93 and up.

Now for the axles themselves, IMO factory lockers are way way better than ARB's, and the premium you'll pay for a truck with lockers will be less than the parts & install you'll pay to put ARB's in an open truck.

LETSROLL
02-22-2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks! Appreciate the terminology correction. Snf I see you understood my question despite the incorrect terminology. Go factory and avoid the ARBs.

Tch2fly
02-22-2009, 09:45 PM
Thanks! Appreciate the terminology correction. Snf I see you understood my question despite the incorrect terminology. Go factory and avoid the ARBs.

While many prefer the factory lockers there is nothing wrong with ARBs, so there is no reason to "avoid" them. I like mine and they lock much faster then the factory e-locker in my Tacoma. I have seen several cases of ruined e-locker accuators and they are not cheap (new or used). Older ARBs may be subject to leaking o-rings and that can get a bit pricey if you can't do the labor.

The main consideration is the cost. You should be able to find a truck with factory lockers at a reasonable price and avoid the additional expense of adding ARBs (or buy go ahead and buy a truck with ARBs already installed). If you found the "perfect" truck without lockers you can swap in some factory lockers or go with ARBs ... the cost will be very similar with no huge advantage to either.

AxleIke
02-22-2009, 09:52 PM
I agree with Mike 100%. Factory lockers are slow. In the rear, its not a big deal, but in the front, the speed of ARB's is nice.

Nakman, why do you feel factory is so much better than ARB? I have heard nothing on either one being significantly stronger. Also, the factory lockers have a motor that can get smashed in the rocks.

LetsRoll, either one will work GREAT, and you'll be happy.

FJBen
02-23-2009, 09:50 AM
The ARB case is stronger as it's made of 300m, although the OEM lockers are not weak.

The problem with Factory lockers is that #1 if you wheel hard with 35's, you could twist a spline on the axle and then you are going to have to cut into the axle :eek:/3rd member area to get that axle out. If it's twists, you are are screwed and in for a huge PITA fix. Also if the actuators goes bad, they are like $500~$600 to replace that part.

ARB's are perfectly fine to use. If you twist and axle, no worries, it doesn't stay locked or cause issues. THe O-ring issue has been solved with the new stye so the leaking isn't really an issue. If it is, It's really not hard at all to replace. Especially the rear, you can have the 3rd out in less than 30 mins and it takes all of 4 minutes to replace the o-rings if they are bad. It's like $10 in parts not counting oil.

The only ARB failure I've had was due to the carrier bolts backing loose :eek: and allowing the locker to move and pinch the oring. tightend, new o-rings and good as new.

I would personally look at trying to find the cleanest, lowest mileage best recorded 80 that you can find lockers or no. Although I always tend to search out the locked one's first. :D

nakman
02-23-2009, 10:59 AM
A good ARB setup is bomber, no question it can work well. But my preference for the factory lockers mainly because of their simplicity of use- they tend to just work, while a lot of ARB setups I have wheeled with tend to have recurring issues, mainly air & oil leaks, or some reason to continually be screwing with the compressor or something.. I don't know what all the issues are, other than it seems like people with ARB's often seem to be fiddling with something.

But since the question is about looking to purchase a new 80, why not get one with the lockers arleady in it? One of great things about 80's is how a stock one can be so functional right out of the box. In fact the lockers themselves may be close to free, so you can spend that locker money on tires or sliders or something more fun that you'd actually use every time you drive the truck.

And I don't feel I wheel that hard to worry about twisting an axle. I'm surprised you guys say the fronts are slow to engage, mine is almost right away, it's the back one that takes a little longer since the splines are larger, the axle needs to twist a little more to get it to all line up. Though it's rare I'm rolling up to something flipping on the locker in a panic at the last second, usually there's a little more time to plan. It happens, though.

Nay
02-23-2009, 11:46 AM
I can't tell you how many runs I've been on over the years with an ARB owner running open because he is trying to diagnose ARB problems. YMMV.

There is nothing wrong with them, if I was buying an open diff 80 I'd put an auto locker in the rear and convert the front to e-locker, personally. The 80 is so heavy that if you really need lockers, meaning you are on a difficult trail, then you are going to pretty much have the rear locked for most of the trail anyway.

My front e-locker engages immediately, I have no issues, and as stated above for difficult trails I leave the rear engaged anyway until I am done with the serious stuff.

The great thing about the 80 is you can buy a locked one, add a 3" lift, 35" tires and lower diff gearing and go about anywhere a vehicle of this size is suited to go. This means little to no constant wrenching, repairs, etc.

Now if you like to get on it and are planning tires bigger than 35", starting unlocked and building up both axles is going to make good sense, including things like cryo R&P, upgraded chromo axles, etc.

Bikeman
02-23-2009, 11:57 AM
How many have had the rear splines of the axle twist wheeling with 35's? I have thought about the poly pro axles and was wondering if it would be wise to do as a preventative measure? I've dropped like $6K on my rig recently; what's another 500 bucks?

DaveInDenver
02-23-2009, 12:02 PM
So Rubithon crew, both Cheeseman and I run ARB lockers. How much down time do you guys recall there being from us fiddling with our Air Lockers? Unless you were behind us on Cadillac I would suggest zero and the Cadillac slow down was maybe 5 minutes total? If you take care to install the air line securely and generally keep things in order, Air Lockers are not trouble children. I clean and rehab my compressor periodically, inspect air lines, check fittings, run them once a month usually just to check and lube the seals. It's really nothing too tough. I have a second compressor that is used to refill tires normally, but it could be pressed into service if need be, carry some extra tubing and most importantly the female-to-female tubing quick splice. That is the best $10 any Air Locker owner can spend.

Nay
02-23-2009, 12:41 PM
The alternate question is how many problems on Rubithon were seen with e-lockers?

It's a matter of where you want to spend your $$$, mostly. If you are getting a loan, e-lockers will be included in your loan. If you buy an 80 with say Slee sliders already installed, and maybe bumpers, etc., those will be included in your loan given what built 80's are selling for.

What I would care about most, personally, is baseline maintenance. With the 80 series head gasket issues, having the headgasket replaced, relatively recent front and rear axle service, and other PM can save you at least half the cost of the rig. A $4K non-locked and non-maintained 80 is a $12-15K project in total to build, but the rest of the money will come out of your pocket unless you can do this type of work.

But a fully baselined and modified 80 can be had easily for $8K with reasonable miles (low 100K's). Somebody else's work is the very high value on the market. I bought my 80 3.5 years ago and the previous owner had the headgasket replaced, front and rear axles serviced, and sliders and a OME kit installed, all by Slee. This was worth $5K on what was at the time a $13.8K purchase (105K miles at the time), and it was done by an extremely reputable local shop that specializes in 80's.

So you can do ARB's when you do gears, get the right base rig, and get mods if you can because you'll pay pennies on the dollar in this market if you intend to build it.

DaveInDenver
02-23-2009, 01:40 PM
The alternate question is how many problems on Rubithon were seen with e-lockers?
None that I'm aware, but I'm not disputing that factory lockers are reliable, too. People are saying that they somehow have their trips ruined by guys fiddling with their ARBs and I'm just offering a pretty difficult trip that I hope wasn't negatively impacted by us messing with our Air Lockers.

Uncle Ben
02-23-2009, 01:54 PM
The ARB case is stronger as it's made of 300m, although the OEM lockers are not weak.

The problem with Factory lockers is that #1 if you wheel hard with 35's, you could twist a spline on the axle and then you are going to have to cut into the axle :eek:/3rd member area to get that axle out. If it's twists, you are are screwed and in for a huge PITA fix. Also if the actuators goes bad, they are like $500~$600 to replace that part.

ARB's are perfectly fine to use. If you twist and axle, no worries, it doesn't stay locked or cause issues. THe O-ring issue has been solved with the new stye so the leaking isn't really an issue. If it is, It's really not hard at all to replace. Especially the rear, you can have the 3rd out in less than 30 mins and it takes all of 4 minutes to replace the o-rings if they are bad. It's like $10 in parts not counting oil.

The only ARB failure I've had was due to the carrier bolts backing loose :eek: and allowing the locker to move and pinch the oring. tightend, new o-rings and good as new.

I would personally look at trying to find the cleanest, lowest mileage best recorded 80 that you can find lockers or no. Although I always tend to search out the locked one's first. :D



And the difference in splines twisting between the different kind of lockers is? Personally, I trust factory Toyota lockers over pressurized air actuated lockers! If an axle does twist bad with factory lockers it can be a real bear to repair. On that same note, if the splines are starting to twist, personally I would rather my locker would stick, alerting me that a problem is happening prior to snapped axle and diff full of shrapnel! It all falls back to the same thing....if you maintain your junk at home you'll spend less time dinking with it on the trail!

AxleIke
02-23-2009, 02:12 PM
In the end, buy whatever you want.

Factory lockers are good, ARB's are good.

ARB's CAN have airline issues. This can be easily solved with SS lines. Oil and internal air leaks are rare on a properly set up diff.

My rear ARB had a set up issue. The locker never did. It's getting reset up, but in the end, neither my front, nor my rear has ever had an issue on the trail.

Factory lockers have issues too. Two guys I know have had on trail failures in their taco's with the locker either popping out, involving a motor removal, or the locker shorting out underwater.

IMO, buying an 80 with the factory lockers is a MUCH better choice than buying ARB's to put in. Its all factory, and, its a good way to go.

DaveInDenver
02-23-2009, 02:25 PM
ARB's CAN have airline issues. This can be easily solved with SS lines.
Just to complete this thought, if you have an Air Locker you NEED to having these rolling around in your spares box. Naturally assuming proper setup and regular maintenance, but these little $10 fittings solve the most common on-trail issues.

http://www.dirtroad.com/arb14.jpg

LETSROLL
02-23-2009, 05:26 PM
Thanks for the very energetic commentary! In reading your posts I've learned quite a bit. Not sure how this might play out in a purchase except to say I'm looking for:
Clean rig, low miles, lockers, as few POs as possible, price, location. If I find a rig that has most of these I may overlook the missing factory lockers since ARB seems to be well thought of.

THanks, LETSROLL

nakman
02-23-2009, 09:43 PM
You want a big built one? you could have this one for $8K.. http://forum.ih8mud.com/vehicles-trailers-sale-wanted/260842-97-fzj-80-lifted-locked.html

Crash
02-23-2009, 10:16 PM
You want a big built one? you could have this one for $8K.. http://forum.ih8mud.com/vehicles-trailers-sale-wanted/260842-97-fzj-80-lifted-locked.html

First line of description: Slee Double Cardigans? Uh oh, red flag. I thought they only came in factory solid black. Can you get them with the Union Jack, ala Mini Cooper roofs, too?

nakman
02-23-2009, 10:36 PM
First line of description: Slee Double Cardigans? Uh oh, red flag. I thought they only came in factory solid black. Can you get them with the Union Jack, ala Mini Cooper roofs, too?

whachutalkinabout, cardigans?

Hulk
02-23-2009, 11:32 PM
IMO, buying an 80 with the factory lockers is a MUCH better choice than buying ARB's to put in. Its all factory, and, its a good way to go.

I agree, but not because I think factory lockers are better than ARBs (although I personally prefer the Toyota lockers).

Most of the time, it won't cost any more to buy an 80 with front+rear lockers than an 80 without them. You might as well spend a little more time looking at 80s until you find the one that is well maintained WITH lockers.

Then you can spend your money buying sliders, bumpers, lift, tires, gears, skid plates, ham and CB radios, Nakman interior accessories, Slee double cardigan sweaters, etc.

There are plenty of things to spend your money on after the purchase. Why waste money installing lockers when you can usually get them included for the same price?

Mr. Slee will show you what to look for:

http://sleeoffroad.com/technical/images/locker.jpg


You want a big built one? you could have this one for $8K.. http://forum.ih8mud.com/vehicles-trailers-sale-wanted/260842-97-fzj-80-lifted-locked.html

That's a mighty fine rig for $8K. I shudder to think how much money I have in my 80.

Nay
02-24-2009, 01:05 PM
You want a big built one? you could have this one for $8K.. http://forum.ih8mud.com/vehicles-trailers-sale-wanted/260842-97-fzj-80-lifted-locked.html

I almost bought this rig 3 years ago when it was sold the first time. Those are custom front y-link radius arms. I didn't want to go that big at the time.

I would only buy a built rig, those mods are maybe five cents on the dollar at this point?

Crash
02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Just to complete this thought, if you have an Air Locker you NEED to having these rolling around in your spares box. Naturally assuming proper setup and regular maintenance, but these little $10 fittings solve the most common on-trail issues.

http://www.dirtroad.com/arb14.jpg

Dave, where can we pick these up locally without having to order them first?

Beater
02-24-2009, 01:56 PM
I almost bought this rig 3 years ago when it was sold the first time. Those are custom front y-link radius arms. I didn't want to go that big at the time.

I would only buy a built rig, those mods are maybe five cents on the dollar at this point?

Having built 3 rigs now, I can honestly say you would have to be a complete maroon if you think you can treat building a vehicle as an investment.

I had close to 15k into my rover that I ended up selling for 3k.
I probably lost 9k in my last 80

oh - you CAN manually operate an elocker to some extent, not so with an arb. that's my only .02 on this

nakman
02-24-2009, 02:10 PM
And while true, I seem to enjoy the journey too much to ever just go buy something someone else built. I like my 4" springs now because I had J's before. And I liked the J's, because I had 850's before. and I liked the 850's, because... same goes for all the tires, lighting modifications, various cargo area configurations, each new one is an improvement to the last, and the process of making that happen is often more enjoyable to me than the end result. It's clearly a hobby, not a business.

DaveInDenver
02-24-2009, 02:11 PM
Dave, where can we pick these up locally without having to order them first?
Not sure, maybe Christo would have them?

Tch2fly
02-24-2009, 03:12 PM
Dave, where can we pick these up locally without having to order them first?

I got mine at High Country 4x4

Hulk
02-24-2009, 05:53 PM
And while true, I seem to enjoy the journey too much to ever just go buy something someone else built. I like my 4" springs now because I had J's before. And I liked the J's, because I had 850's before. and I liked the 850's, because... same goes for all the tires, lighting modifications, various cargo area configurations, each new one is an improvement to the last, and the process of making that happen is often more enjoyable to me than the end result. It's clearly a hobby, not a business.

Yeah, but think how cool it would be if you could start with an 80 like the one Neil Quigley bought. Supercharged, HID lights, bumpers... even if you wanted different armor, you could sell off the used parts.

I've always been skeptical of buying a truck that someone else built, but there are occasionally opportunities to buy really solid, amazing trucks. I would have loved to have owned Wild Rice. Hatfield's old pig was really well built and needed nothing. You could buy any truck that FJBen builds -- he only owns them for 6 months before he decides to "save money" by selling it, and then buys another one a few months later. :D

farnhamstj
02-24-2009, 07:55 PM
I have ARB in the front and factory in the rear. I really like the set up. If you are buying an 80 buy one with factory lockers. If you find an 80 you like without lockers plan on another $2500 to add the ARB. I will sugest that you also consider a 98 or 99 land cruiser. They were offered with a factory rear locker and an ARB may be installed in the front for about $1300. How may 80 owners can run with just the front locker engaged? Or maybe that's bad birfield juju. 98-99's don't have birfield issues:D

nakman
02-24-2009, 09:50 PM
.... How may 80 owners can run with just the front locker engaged?

That's funny I have actually discussed doing that mod in threads of old, would like to have it if it was somewhat feasible. Involves quite a bit of wiring work though, more than this Joe pocketknife and his roll of electrical tape should probably take on. Have you ever run open rear/locked in front Farnham?

FJBen
02-26-2009, 09:18 AM
Yeah, but think how cool it would be if you could start with an 80 like the one Neil Quigley bought. Supercharged, HID lights, bumpers... even if you wanted different armor, you could sell off the used parts.

I've always been skeptical of buying a truck that someone else built, but there are occasionally opportunities to buy really solid, amazing trucks. I would have loved to have owned Wild Rice. Hatfield's old pig was really well built and needed nothing. You could buy any truck that FJBen builds -- he only owns them for 6 months before he decides to "save money" by selling it, and then buys another one a few months later. :D

Very good point :) My last 80 I traded for but still had to sell. :( The good news is that we are debt free besides the house right now :beer::thumb:

Buying built isn't a bad deal at all, a lot of times they are very nicely setup for WAY cheaper than you can build it.

AxleIke
02-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Have you ever run open rear/locked in front Farnham?

I have several times.

It is particularly useful when you wish to slide around something rather than go over. I came to a rock that I had to either go over, or go around, and going over was going to get me stuck, but the rear wouldn't "slide" as, with it locked, it wanted to just climb. So, I unlocked the rear, and kept the front locked, and was able to pull around the rock.

Its not common, but it is a nice feature.

nakman
02-26-2009, 11:04 AM
I have several times.

It is particularly useful when you wish to slide around something rather than go over. I came to a rock that I had to either go over, or go around, and going over was going to get me stuck, but the rear wouldn't "slide" as, with it locked, it wanted to just climb. So, I unlocked the rear, and kept the front locked, and was able to pull around the rock.

Its not common, but it is a nice feature.

Awesome. :thumb: My "dream use" is when I follow someone down a shelf road in the snow, then for whatever reason we have to back up. When your back is locked, it tends to just slide off the road, but when you're open everywhere it's not enough to get going, and it's worse trying to back up around a corner. Would be sweet to be locked in front only in that situation.

Uncle Ben
02-26-2009, 11:48 AM
Awesome. :thumb: My "dream use" is when I follow someone down a shelf road in the snow, then for whatever reason we have to back up. When your back is locked, it tends to just slide off the road, but when you're open everywhere it's not enough to get going, and it's worse trying to back up around a corner. Would be sweet to be locked in front only in that situation.

So just bypass the safety lock.....couldn't be that tough. Be carefull about counting on the minitruck crap in front to get the tuna boat free by itself!

AxleIke
02-26-2009, 12:03 PM
about counting on the minitruck crap in front to get the tuna boat free by itself!

Aww...You know you love it. At heart, you wish you drove a mini :lmao:

Hulk
02-26-2009, 01:04 PM
The good news is that we are debt free besides the house right now.

Hey, that's great!

Didn't you have that sweet 100 series a few years back with all the LCD screens in the headrests? That one was very tempting when you were selling it.

Red_Chili
02-26-2009, 01:59 PM
Be carefull about counting on the minitruck crap in front to get the tuna boat free by itself!
That's right. If a bridge rated for 20,000 lbs collapses when a 30,000 lb. rig crosses it, it is the bridge's fault.

:lmao:

AxleIke
02-26-2009, 03:17 PM
That's right. If a bridge rated for 20,000 lbs collapses when a 30,000 lb. rig crosses it, it is the bridge's fault.

:lmao:

:D:D:D:D:D

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Uncle Ben
02-26-2009, 03:36 PM
That's right. If a bridge rated for 20,000 lbs collapses when a 30,000 lb. rig crosses it, it is the bridge's fault.

:lmao:

No not really....but the silly engineer who decided to build a light duty bridge that might be called into the duty of a severe duty bridge should be publicly flogged! Put a kids go-cart parts on dads golf cart and you just might not be able to get all 18 holes in in one day! :rolleyes: :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

farnhamstj
02-26-2009, 06:39 PM
I have run locked in the front open in the rear due to the fact that the front engages almost immedialty and I often get to the top of an obstical to realize the rear locker is still flashing and not yet engaged. Or I don't want to wait so I just drive straight up with front locked only. I have not had to pull the tight turn drag the rear move yet, or back up, but when I have to I'll be able to.
If something looks gnarly, I'm not of the try it open, then try 1 locker then try 2. It there is not a lot of turning involved and chances of low traction. I'll run both lockers. If I have to turn it's rear. If it's looks easy, nada.

FJBen
02-27-2009, 09:47 AM
Hey, that's great!

Didn't you have that sweet 100 series a few years back with all the LCD screens in the headrests? That one was very tempting when you were selling it.

Yeah we try to forget that one :( again, trying to save a few bucks on the now, doesn't always go in your favor. I have this odd aversion to debt/car payments that sometimes doesn't pan out....like that cruiser. Should have kept it. Didn't lose or gain money, but chalked it up as a learning experience :(