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View Full Version : Engine Talk 2.7 VS 3.4


bh4rnnr
05-21-2009, 09:03 AM
Ok, so i'm on the fence on where to go with the front end, so I decided to start working on the Engine. Though like the front end, I go back and forth, other than keeping it Toyota...

So lets here those thoughts etc on either setup.

Goal is to have it completed for CM10.

And if your really board, post up any finds;)

:beer::beer:

Beater
05-21-2009, 09:06 AM
they're are several 3.4's on craigslist, and I know oleg and jim both have them. There was a 3.4 s/c out there too..

I would stay as simple as possible if it were me, and transplant a good known runner, while doing whatever seals were seeping and what not on the stand.

Uncle Ben
05-21-2009, 09:11 AM
2.7 is the least invasive transplant for your application. A 3.4 your gonna join Chili and have a "suck" hole on your hood!

DaveInDenver
05-21-2009, 09:14 AM
You have a 22R-E & W56 now, right?

From an ease standpoint the 3RZ will install in with less hassles. Marlin has a bellhousing to adapt your W56 to the 3RZ block, so the tranny back does not have to change. This might or might not be an advantage. For me it would be a huge upside because I could stick with a known good tranny and keep my 4.7 Marlin case. Also that means no driveshaft changes to deal with.

Pretty sure the motor mounts have to change no matter which engine you go with, but the 22R rubber block and plate work on teh 3RZ AFAIK. So the welding is to re-locate the frame side bracket. That would be the extent of the fabrication, the rest is wiring and fitting the air box and all that.

There are more swaps to the 3.4L, so wiring is going to have more support. But more than a few people have done the 2.7L swap, Marlin and a few of his guys for example. So while you got guys like Bill here in Denver, having Marlin on your side ain't nuthin' to sneeze at.

The 2.7L will get better mileage and leave more room under the hood (and not require cutting your hood as well).

The 3.4L will be more fun and probably break more stuff...

I should say for honesty, if I could go back 3 years and re-do it, I would have swapped to the 3RZ rather than rebuild my engine. Talking to Marlin at Rubithon last year convinced me that the 2.7L is the right gasoline motor for the '79-'95 trucks and his description of the swap made it sound pretty straightforward. Barely more work than pulling and re-install a rebuilt (or new in my case) motor and as long as the donor truck gave up a complete harness, the wiring is not too bad.

RockRunner
05-21-2009, 09:35 AM
If I am not mistaken the number sin HP are pretty significant. I believe 150 hp compared to 195 or 210 hp. Then there is the weight to consider, the 3.4 will require heavier/custom springs with the bumper and winch combo.

I am in the same boat as I want more power but don't have a ton of $$$ to spend on it or time. Last time I checked doing a 3.4 swap will run you about $5000 if you do most of the work yourself and use the right parts. If you have it done double that price, ORS used to charge $10-12K depending on options. You can still go to their site and check out the parts needed and prices.

The 2.7 swap is much cheaper since you can keep a lot of your stock parts. I would upgrade my radiator if I was doing it but it is not a must. Also there are some fun parts to get more power out of the 2.7 so that you can come close to the 3.4.

Then you also need to remember the trany/transfer case issue. I have the Marlin Ultimate and don't want to give that up so.............that sort of decides it for me I guess;)

When I spoke to Bill and Justin regarding this swap they too said the 2.7 was the easier cheaper way to go but the 3.4 has the fun factor and the towing power. If money wasn't an option I would have a SC 3.4 under the hood if not a 4.0:D:bowdown:

I am sure Bill will chime in here in a little while and you'll get real time advice. My advice is just research and talking to people.

DaveInDenver
05-21-2009, 09:54 AM
If I am not mistaken the number sin HP are pretty significant. I believe 150 hp compared to 195 or 210 hp. Then there is the weight to consider, the 3.4 will require heavier/custom springs with the bumper and winch combo.
FWIW, the 2.7L has nearly identical power numbers as the 3.0L with the upside of as good or slightly better economy as the 22R-E. Coupled with the fact that you can keep your existing gear driven stuff, it just seems like the best cost/reward pay off. All the shifter holes still line up, etc. Like I say, going back through the numbers and with time as a buffer, it would be pretty much a wash cost wise to just swap to the 2.7L instead of building a new 22R-E, but with a +20HP or so bump.

3VZ-FE is 150 HP @ 4800 RPM, 180 ft-lbf @ 3400 RPM
3RZ-FE is 150 HP @ 4800 RPM, 177 ft-lbf @ 4000 RPM

bh4rnnr
05-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Some good thoughts so far,

The more I build the runner, the more I want to stay with the thought of keeping it simple and reliable. Another factor down the road, at least for the engine standpoint would be availability.

The 3.4 seems to have been a proven swap, though like you guys have stated, $$...

The more I look into the 2.7 swap it seems to be the way to go, and reading your guys' thoughts thus far is reassuring that. I'm not looking for a hot rod motor, just something that'll be as reliable as the current 22re; 266k, and 19mpg. Starts up everyday and not one major problem to speak of.

I thought about doing something like say a LC motor, but I like the thought of new fuel system whith a new motor.

So where's some good places to look for research? Marlin? I wont be doing the work myself, as I dont think 16th street mall would be to happy bout some dude doing an engine swap. Just need to know what all is needed. I also am planning on rebuilding the stock 5spd and adding duals.

sleeoffroad
05-21-2009, 01:10 PM
4.7l v8 is the only way to go.

DaveInDenver
05-21-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm not looking for a hot rod motor, just something that'll be as reliable as the current 22re; 266k, and 19mpg. Starts up everyday and not one major problem to speak of.
Then why switch at all? If your motor is still good, it's got lots of life in it probably. Don't spend money you don't have to, new HG and timing parts and call it good. I dunno, that's what I'd do. I got forced into a rebuild because my timing parts let loose, but there wasn't really anything wrong with the long block otherwise.

Red_Chili
05-21-2009, 03:25 PM
I am sure Bill will chime in here in a little while and you'll get real time advice.
What they said.

:lmao:



JMHO, for your application the 2.7 is the way to go. The 3.4 is way more fun but sheesh, you hardly have any truck to pull around, really. Simple is worth a lot. It is just as proven as the 3.4 swap, perhaps more so inasmuch as the 'easy' swap to a 3.4 starts with a 3.0. The 22R-E to 5VZ is waaaay harder.

If I am not mistaken the number sin HP are pretty significant. I believe 150 hp compared to 195 or 210 hp. ...
FWIW, the 2.7L has nearly identical power numbers as the 3.0L with the upside of as good or slightly better economy as the 22R-E
Apples to oranges. Tom was comparing to the 5VZ, not the 3.slo. There is a significant power difference there.

The 5VZ *may* require more spring, but you might be surprised to find less difference in motor weight than you expect. The 22RE ain't light, and the 5VZ ain't heavy. I don't have the numbers however. I did not need to change suspension.

You *may* have marginally better mileage with the 3RZ over the 5VZ, but given the weight of your truck you might be surprised to find that not so.

The simplicity of the swap would be my deciding factor. Do I wish I had done it?

No.

Vehicle weight and towing swaying the decision in my case. That may not apply in yours.

Gopher it.

DaveInDenver
05-21-2009, 03:35 PM
Apples to oranges. Tom was comparing to the 5VZ, not the 3.slo. There is a significant power difference there.
I know that, I was saying that the 3RZ-FE has the same power as the 3VZ-FE, which is pretty cool because the 3RZ definitely will get better mileage than the 3.0L and probably better than the 22R-E in the same truck. Being 20 years newer technology has that weird advantage. I think the downside to the 5VZ is that jump in power starts to become a problem unless you use an R151-based drivetrain, which leads you down the road to adapters and t-case differences if you already have a good single RF1A or two... There is a reason why Marlin runs the 2.7L in his 1st gen, it fits right under the hood and with the existing junk.

bh4rnnr
05-21-2009, 07:06 PM
4.7l v8 is the only way to go.

I dont know what i'd do with all that power

Then why switch at all? If your motor is still good, it's got lots of life in it probably. Don't spend money you don't have to, new HG and timing parts and call it good. I dunno, that's what I'd do. I got forced into a rebuild because my timing parts let loose, but there wasn't really anything wrong with the long block otherwise.

Guess you can say it's preventive maintenance in the fact of what i'm planning to do with Skelator in the long run. Just trying to get the rig to a point where I can start it and go. And since I figure that I have funds to do so now, might as well take advantage of the situation:blah:

DaveInDenver
05-21-2009, 10:20 PM
Starts up everyday and not one major problem to speak of.
You said it yourself... I'd put the money in the bank (or bury in the backyard or something). Stash the cash for now and just prep to swap while keeping what you got going. But what do I know? I wish I had the money to be thinking about it, so maybe jealousy?

powderpig
05-22-2009, 09:13 AM
The 2.7 would be perfect for your runner. You have lightened it a bunch. The 2.7 HP/Torque and fuel ecomany on the trail would be better than a 3.4 and I would think be better then the 22re currently in your truck. No real need for a 6 when a 4 would do.
buy the parts when you seen them cheap and stash them until you are ready to do the job your self.

AxleIke
05-22-2009, 09:55 AM
The 2.7 is a bomber motor. Totally the way I want to go with my truck someday.

Dave, I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the gear driven stuff.

I don't know of anyone who has swapped a 3.4 and NOT kept the gear driven stuff. Its the whole reason the 3.4 swap has the tricky crossover pipe. You could easily swap a 3.4 and keep your 4.7 case. Better yet, swap the 3.4 AND put a 2.28 case in between :D

DaveInDenver
05-22-2009, 10:19 AM
Dave, I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the gear driven stuff.
5VZ bolts to R150, which does not directly bolt to RF1A t-case. The V6 trucks have the chain driven VF1A transfer behind their R150. So you need to adapt the R150 or R151 you use behind the 3.4L to the front (or only) RF1A with Marlin's kit or some other way. That's an extra $350 you need to spend if you have a gear driven transfer case behind a V6. Most people do this, but if you start with a 3.0L drivetrain you already have a R150F and 23-spline chain driven transfer case with the right holes in the floor board for them. Starting with a 22R driveline means you are starting further back towards scratch. Just saying that with a 3RZ you get to keep the W56 and RF1A(s) that you have in place, although you get to spend $400 for the bellhousing to keep the W56, so it's a toss-up cost wise. But since the shifter holes for the R150 don't line up with the existing W56 holes, keeping the existing drivetrain with the 3RZ has the added benefit of not needing a custom snake for a tranny shifter.

AxleIke
05-22-2009, 11:09 AM
Ah. I knew you had to adapt the tcases, but I just figured that was all part of the swap.

I thought you were saying that people would have to use the chain case. All clear now!

Red_Chili
05-22-2009, 11:13 AM
My R151 bolts right up to my gear driven Ultimate Crawler setup...? That is the advantage of the 151 over the 150. If I had it to do over again? As good as the R151 is, the newer R150s (not the 3.slo vintage) shift SO much better, it would be worth having to use an adapter.

...keeping the existing drivetrain with the 3RZ has the added benefit of not needing a custom snake for a tranny shifter. You don't like my custom snake? :sniff: :(

:smokin:

DaveInDenver
05-22-2009, 11:29 AM
Ah. I knew you had to adapt the tcases, but I just figured that was all part of the swap.

I thought you were saying that people would have to use the chain case. All clear now!
Nah, just pointing out about the adapters. If you start with a V6, then you can tackle things in steps, keep the chain case even if you want until you have the money for an Ultimate or whatever. If you start with a 4 cylinder, then you have a lot more that must be done at the same time to make it work, which makes the swap much more expensive up front.

Of course you could also get the unobtainium R151F from a 22R-TE, that would be the sweet way to do it without an adapter. But personally I think the cost benefit to finding one isn't worth it when there are many more options for t-cases that more than out weigh the lower gearing of the turbo tranny.

Actually, Bill, I do like your cool shifter. Reminds me of the old shifters on a SM420 or C6 or something. The way my truck is geared, 33" + 5.29, it drives like an old Power Wagon or 1967 F100, so in a way I wish I had the right looking stick shift, ultra long throw with big ol' bends in it, ya know?