60 Barfing fuel
I was wondering if anyone has an idea what would cause my 60 to barf fuel out the filler tube?
I parked at a trailhead for 4 days with 3/4's of a tank. It was at a tiny bit of an angle tilted to the passenger side. I could smell gas when I parked, but didn't think much of it since it's a 2F. When I hiked out after 4 days, I found the huge puddle of fuel and realized that gas had been trickling out the filler past the gas cap. Lost 1/4 tank and a lot of paint. :(
I could see this happening if I had a bad gas cap, parked on a huge angle and had a full tank, but that was not the case. I am wondering if there is some sort of pressure issue that forced it out?
10% Ethanol fuel boils at altitude. The next time you are out, pull the cap and listen to the fuel tank. It will literally be a rolling boil....
Remember your backpacking days when you discovered boiling water at high altitudes isn't hot.
Methods used at high altitudes
From pressure cooking: A pressure cooker is often used to compensate for the low atmospheric pressure at a very high elevation. Under these circumstances water boils at temperatures significantly below 100 °C (212 °F) and, without the use of a pressure cooker, may leave boiled foods undercooked, as described in Charles Darwin's The Voyage of the Beagle (chapter XV, March 21st, 1835 books.google):
There are lots of articles... get ready for when 25% makes our old iron obsolete. Conspiracy or not, it will take some getting used to. Also remember that current emissions regulation does everything in it's power to prevent your gas tank from venting into the atmosphere (non vented gas caps and charcoal canisters) that makes the problem worse.
I'll get off my soap box if you ask me to :) Try to buy an LED or CFL, for your oven or dryer, now that we decided incandescent light bulbs are bad...
I learned this today reading the article below... E10 fuel is not as stable as past formulas. Older formulations would stay â€œfreshâ€ for about 6 months. E10 can go stale in about 2 â€“ 3 weeks.
Here is one on boats... I found a few articles that farmers had written that their old tractors cannot run on 10% ethanol and their tanks are boiling...
I received this article in a email from Marine Parts Express.com they sell & service marine engines and parts. Hope it helps you guys with your fuel problems.
By Robert Van Brunt
Chief Petty Officer U.S.G.G. ret
ETHANOL AND VAPOR LOCK
When the engine compartment becomes hot either by climate or idling, and you use ethanol-blend gasoline it can cause excessive vapors in your fuel line and starve the engine of fuel. The engine can run poorly or stop and will not run until the fuel condenses.
Fuel containing 10% ethanol is called E10. If you have ethanol in your gas, you run the risk of creating vapor lock because of excess vapors.
Ethanol â€œboilsâ€ at 87ÂșF (at normal atmospheric pressure) and turns from a liquid to a gaseous state. By comparison, most automobiles have their fuel pump in the gas tank, so the whole system remains under pressure unlike boats whose fuel tanks are vented. In a closed system, the higher pressure raises the flash point of the ethanol reducing the amount of vapor that is produced. In addition, most automobile fuel lines are outside of the vehicle allowing them to stay cooler.
Since most boat fuel lines are in the enclosed space (sometimes even insulated) of the engine compartment, normal ventilation will not cool the fuel significantly enough to avoid the potential problems of vapor lock. Furthermore, since the fuel pump in a boat is mounted on the engine (versus a car where the pump resides in the tank) the action of the pump can reduce pressure in the tank to below atmospheric pressure and further reduce the flash point.
Boat engineers are aware of this problem and are reducing the likelihood of this occurring by reducing the suction required by the fuel pump, minimizing hose fittings and bends, and including a quality anti-siphon valve. In existing boats, fuel lines and filters should be kept as low in the boat as possible and tank vents should be cleaned and open.
Most boats have â€œforcedâ€ ventilation. Air moves through the engine compartment when the boat moves forward. Heat soak happens after you have been at high RPM and then stop or drift on idle for a while. Because of heat soak the engine compartment will rise to a point where the ethanol will boil
To prevent vapor lock (i.e. boiling ethanol):
1. Make sure the engine compartment has adequate ventilation.
2. Relocate fuel lines to be low in the bilge. (The bilge is cooler because it is in direct contact with the water.)
3. Monitor the engine compartment temperature.
4. Add (or turn on) engine room blowers.
5. Keep the tank vent clean and unobstructed.
yeah the vent system on the 60's can't keep up with hot e10 fuel i think. mine will do something similar.
Make sure the cap can hold decent pressure and go through a quick check on the evap system including the charcoal canister checks.
Been having vapor lock issues in my 40 on Spring Creek for a while now, even with a new fuel pump. Been opening the hood when stopped and waiting for other rigs to make it over obstacles.
I have heard of folks putting some quantity of 2 cycle oil in their E-10 (in old/classic cars) to cut back on vapor locking. Sounds nutty, but I may try it. It certainly cannot hurt the engine. I'm thinking about 8 oz./half tank of an FJ40. If it makes no difference, then dump in another 8 oz. I suspect it won't help, but who knows.
Along the lines of Steve's idea...
When I got the 40 running back in 2002, I moved to about 7000 feet in New Mexico. Carb cooling fan was not working yet and I would get vapor lock. The guy that did the engine build said to add a quart of ATF to each tank to cut down the vapor lock. It seemed to help.
Either 2 stroke oil or ATF would generally increase the average molecular weight of the fuel and thus lower the vapor pressure of the mixture. As long as it didn't foul the plugs or cause undue deposits on the valves and stuff that seems like a decent idea.
I'm certain my 40 vapor lock issues are the fault of ethanol fuel, but the 60 forcing 1/4 tank out the filler doesn't make sense. If it was just the ethanol causing that then it seems every vehicle would do it.
if the vehicle is tilted so the fuel level is over the fill pipe then excess pressure forces fuel up and out. In my situation my fuel cap was loose.
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