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  #11  
Old 06-10-2010, 12:15 PM
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Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead, but if it does turn out that the camshaft alignment needs adjusting - will the engine need to be pulled out?
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2010, 01:36 PM
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Pulling it out is problly the easiest way. But no. You should have enough room if you remove the radiatior and grill to slide the cam forward you'll also have to remove the timing set to get access. (don't really know 2f's but I assume it's a pushrods motor) Seeing he's having cam-dist alignment issues. I'd put money it's not shimmer right and it's about 1/16"-1/8" to far twords the dist blocking the dist from droping correctlly
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2010, 02:09 PM
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I'm not sure how you check to see if it is shimmed correctly but I'm pretty sure the cam gear is pressed onto the end of the camshaft. Then there is a retainer plate behind the cam gear where the bolts go that actually hold the cam shaft in. I think the shim that determines end play is behind that plate. Thinking of that arrangement it could only be the shim is missing or wrong size or the retainer plate bolts could be loose letting it slide too far forward.

The cam may not wiggle easy while it's installed due to the pressure from the lifters and valve springs.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:32 PM
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If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?


edit: This is a Toyota dizzy right? not a GM DUI thing right?
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60wag View Post
If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?


edit: This is a Toyota dizzy right? not a GM DUI thing right?
Yes Bruce, all three distributors that I have are Toyota. One is a vacuum retard points, one is a 60 Seriers big cap and the third is a 78/79 small cap.
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60wag View Post
If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?
If the dist was smoothly dropping in like they usually do then I would agree with you. But since he says it gets tight and he has to force it down then something else is going on to cause a bind before the dist is fully seated. The gears could be engaging enough to make the dist spin but binding enough that the dist is not dropping down far enough to engage the oil pump slot.
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:42 PM
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Ok guys, I think we can put this thread to bed as I have oil pressure with a dizzy stabbed in.

I went through the checks suggested in the thread;
  • Depth from the block to the oil pump compared to the dizzy shafts. The shafts are long enough. The depth on both engines are within 1/8" of each other - interestingly the new engine is less depth than the old engine.
  • I checked the camshaft gear for any movement/slippage and there is none. For this I found a drum brake adjusting tool to work very well as the angle made it easier to get leverage for a good test.
  • I then practiced stabbing the dizzy on the old engine a few times, to get a better feel for where the slot needs to be how far to the right to start the stab, what it feels like when it is wrong, what it feels like when it is right.
I then gave it a go with the new engine. Low a behold, it was snug but not HE-MAN tight and stabbed in all the way. Unfortunately the base locking plate of the dizzy (60 series big cap) was not oriented correctly, i.e. it was too close to the block to allow for advancing the timing. So I pulled it out and proceeded to try and get it all in perfect - when I thought I was there I call Rick out and we cranked it over. Sadly there was no oil pressure and we lost our flywheel position as I did not take the time to rotate the engine to TDC when the rotor was pointing to plug 1.

At this point I was ready to call it a night but decided to give it another try. Yeah, I know that even if I got it done the chance of it being in the right position on the flywheel is pretty slim - but I just had to know tonight if the dizzy would turn the oil pump or was I going to spend tomorrow evening dropping the oil pan.

Well, I know the dizzy turns the oil pump. I got it stabbed in and can see oil pressure on the gauge when spinning the motor with the starter. So tomorrow, I'll pull the dizzy get everything lined up a 7 BTDC on the compression stroke and see if I can get it all the way in, with the appropriate placement of the dizzy base locking plate. Once I have achieved this, it should be started up and running within a few minutes; just need to reconnect the fuel line and hook up the ignition wires.

Thanks for your posts and the thought process the helped me make my way through.
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2010, 07:59 AM
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Great job, Ricardo! Fathers day run would be a great shakedown......just sayin that's all!
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2010, 09:10 AM
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A couple things here:

Cams in F series are not set with shims. There is a plate (retainer) that goes on the front of the cam under the timing gear that bolts to the front of the block front plate, that keeps the cam from thrusting forward. The timing gear is pressed on the end of the cam and keeps the cam from thrusting rearward. How far you press the gear on determines the thrust clearance, which you measure with a feeler gauge. Then a circlip goes on the end of the cam just for belts-and-suspenders. In other words, it is just about impossible for the cam distributor gear to be in the wrong spot forward or backward.

Ricardo - you have to take a long screwdriver and turn the oil pump so the slot is in exactly the right spot before you stab the distributor. This needs to be CCW from where you want the rotor to end up because of the (by now familiar to you) twisting motion of the distributor shaft as it engages with the teeth on the cam.

Note the proper TDC orientation of the rotor in this image:



You want it to be pointing at that bolt on the side cover when it is stabbed properly. You can be a tooth either way but this orientation will give optimal clearance to the distributor body and diaphragm for setting the static timing.
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