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Old 04-10-2008, 12:02 PM
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Default Shop to reface rockers?

The title says it. Gunn can't do it.
If I go with a new head, it doesn't come fully loaded (minus rockers and shafts) and using used rockers on a new cam is bad juju.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:21 PM
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I'm not sure but I would almost bet money Mountain High could do them! They do EVERYTHING in house and they have quite a "house!" I just had my drilled/slotted rotors on my 80 redone. I had the Cryoed then had them ground non directional on the flywheel machine and then balanced. Beautiful job!
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:37 PM
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Mountain High can't do them, they are concerned about grinding through the case hardening. They recommended new or aftermarket, "do it right".

I had this interesting email from Ted Stanwood though, he does resurface them (and VERY affordably, I may just ship them to him):
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These are slide type followers so that is not critical since they ride on an oil wedge. If smooth they will operate fine.

With lifter designs the lifter face has to be cam ground and rotate or wear is very rapid.

What we found with the aftermarket wasn't the pad, that was fine. It was the arm itself, made from pure aluminum. Pure aluminum is cheaper, but it also expands and the darn pads were coming loose, cutting the cam lobes because they were wobbling around, even coming off..

The Toyota arm alloy is eutectic material, 12% silicon copper and that does not expand. Good material but PIA to forge, thus the cost.

Bet it cost me 5 grand to figure that one out...
Ted
So aftermarket is NOT doing it right!
Regards the case hardening...
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No, the pads are solid steel, same hardness at the center as on the outside of them. They test to about 55Rc.
Ted
The man seems to know his stuff. Hmmm, maybe I answered my own question.
Still open to local machine shops though.
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili View Post
Mountain High can't do them, they are concerned about grinding through the case hardening. They recommended new or aftermarket, "do it right".

I had this interesting email from Ted Stanwood though, he does resurface them (and VERY affordably, I may just ship them to him):

So aftermarket is NOT doing it right!
Regards the case hardening...

The man seems to know his stuff. Hmmm, maybe I answered my own question.
Still open to local machine shops though.

Cool! Good information to know!
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Old 04-10-2008, 02:10 PM
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I mentioned this in another reply.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/foru...43&postcount=2
Quote:
As far as the valvetrain, LC Engineering sells the whole rocker assembly for what Jerry could do for me on a set of new rockers and shafts. So basically you get a new girdle, springs and washers for free and the parts are OEM (important everyone says use only OEM rockers, the hardened pads apparently fall off the aftermarket ones). Go figure, LCE is cheaper than someone.

Additionally, if you were thinking about reusing your old rocker shafts, check to see if the ones that came with your 22R-E have two oiling ports per rocker. LCE's have 4 oiling ports per rocker. It looks like that was actually a design change because the current OEM also look to have 4 holes now, so I dunno if they changed that during production or later. My 10/90 production had two holes per rocker.
The only problem I could think of with lapping them was keeping them true to the rocker shaft and a good machine shop shouldn't mess that up. Well, keeping the grinding temp low enough not to ruin the heat treating is also important. When I called around, no one did it and so I just ended buying all new ones. Ted recommended that I use new ones with a new cam. I understood that the follower does break into the cam lobe profile and using old rockers that have not been reground has a high risk of scuffing because the oil wedge isn't thick at all and it does not take much non-uniformity to break the oil layer. But he never offered that he could lap them. Maybe that's a new service or he just got tired of me calling him...

My understanding is that Toyota isn't using some secret special alloy other than I believe it's relatively high copper. I dunno why the aftermarket makers don't fix the problem, it's having a high silicon (>10%) content that reduces the thermal expansion and that's cheap compared to other eutectic modifiers. It's possible that Toyota's supplier is adding something else, maybe sodium. But the metallurgy behind all of this is only like several decades old, so even the Chinese knock-offs should be able to handle it. Ted mentioned that he thought aftermarket arms were pure aluminum, but that does not make sense to me because the silicon probably actually reduces the material costs. I just think the problem is not the alloy, but in the process, they are not controlling their cooling well (if at all) and their structure isn't as good as OEM. I'm the first to admit that I have a very limited understanding about all this, but the rate of cooling has more of an affect on the stability of the casting than modifying the eutectic properties. That was my guess, that they are using a similar alloy as Toyota but with a process that is missing a step. But I guess it's possible they are modifying the alloy to make something that even works at all with a very bad process.
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Old 04-10-2008, 02:18 PM
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Good guess, but...
Ted had them tested. 100% aluminum. Doesn't take long for the hardened pad to fall off. Aftermarket in this case sux.

Ted didn't offer, I simply asked outright after he suggested new, and I looked around for a shop that could reface them and rolled snake-eyes. It is probably not a frequent service nor something they generally do - I have known Ted for years through 4x4wire.com, where I am a section editor, so that probably helped.
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Old 04-10-2008, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili View Post
Good guess, but...
Ted had them tested. 100% aluminum. Doesn't take long for the hardened pad to fall off.
It all comes down to cost, eh? Even if aluminum is more expensive than good sand, if it takes more labor time to mix it, they prolly ain't gonna do it.
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