Rising Sun Member Forums  

Go Back   Rising Sun Member Forums > Toyota 4x4 > General Tech Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 08-11-2008, 06:07 PM
Rzeppa's Avatar
Rzeppa Rzeppa is offline
Cruise Moab Co-Chairman
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kittredge CO, USA
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOTONKA View Post
So, we needed to do something
The "something" is coal gassification and then GTL (gas to liquid). The price of fossil petro is high enough right now to make it worth the ROI. I read somewhere that as long as fossil petro is above $60/bbl it makes most of these alternative liquids viable economically. The US military is already purchasing GTL for some significant fraction of their aviation fuel.

Hydrogen does not have anywhere near the energy density that heptane and cetane (diesel) do. Cellulosic EtOH is promising, but still doesn't have the energy density.

I read something today about sodium batteries (for plug-in electrics). Anyone heard of these before? I had thought that getting the price down on LiIons was the holy grail for plug-ins.
__________________
Jeff Zepp
Kittredge CO USA
1971 & 1976 FJ40s, 1978 FJ45, 1987 FJ60
Rising Sun 4WD Club, TLCA #4063
http://american3dprinting.net/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-12-2008, 09:59 AM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default

GTL, plus nuclear power generation and plug-in electric personal transportation. And recycled garbage/sewage -> methane, methinks.

FWIW, Buell Motorcycle Company is an aberration in American business. In 1983 Erik Buell didn't come up with a 5 year plan or a 20 year plan, he came up with a 200 year plan. He is not in the motorcycle business. He is in the personal transportation business.

This is especially ironic given the accusation they use an antiquated, old tech motor in most of their current motorcycles.
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDØRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-12-2008, 12:03 PM
corsair23's Avatar
corsair23 corsair23 is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Littleton
Posts: 8,698
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOTONKA View Post
TRUE, but 700 billion of our nations wealth is being transfered to other countries that are laughing to the bank.

So, we needed to do something

T Boone Pickens talking point?

I keep hearing this (can't help it since it is ALL over the radio and TV). Yes we need to look for alternative fuels. I believe there is not any one golden BB here, it will be a multitude of differing sources (corn fuel NOT being one of them IMO).

HOWEVER, I found it very interesting and and a not very well known fact that one of those "foreign countries" T Boone Pickens talks about is non other than Canada. You'd get the impression from his ad that ALL of our wealth is going overseas, to the middle east...The fact is that we import more oil from Canada than from any other country!

__________________
Jeff Z. (the "not quite as skinny" one)
TLCA #17037
'97 LX450 - aka "The Whale"
'97 FZJ80 Antique Sage AE #267, stock
12/74 FJ40, 2F, SM420, 4" Lift, ARBs, 33" MTRs

:

"...anything else i can do for you guys, how about i wash your car or mow your lawn while you figure out your firewall system? I am now boarderline insane/unibomber." Kipper

"That assumes I'm even capable of pulling and stabbing..." Jacket

"I really like having a detachable unit." Beater

Last edited by corsair23; 08-12-2008 at 12:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-12-2008, 12:26 PM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default

You would think BigBlueFJ could afford a few upgrades then!
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDØRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-12-2008, 06:55 PM
Hulk's Avatar
Hulk Hulk is offline
Cruise Moab Committee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: South Side!
Posts: 11,492
Send a message via AIM to Hulk
Default

Just another reason to invade Canada.
__________________
Matt Farr, Centennial, Colorado | Webmaster: TLCA.org
1996 FZJ80 · TLCA #4189 · WØRDY
www.rustybrain.com/cruisers · my Rising Sun bio · Facebook · Twitter · Need satellite Internet? Check out: Exede Internet

If you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Hayes Hayes is offline
Rock Stacker
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Aurora
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOTONKA View Post
TRUE, but 700 billion of our nations wealth is being transfered to other countries that are laughing to the bank.

So, we needed to do something
Temporary solution for a permanent problem. Why is it that we've created an 'alternative' fuel that still uses oil? I'll bite when we have a truly alternative fuel, like hydrogen. That also brings me to another point. Oil crises my hind quarters. It is just a way to raise the prices, if there was really a fuel crisis we would be working on COMPLETELU OIL FREE fuels...

The biggest problem with changing fuel sources is getting the infrastructure to sustain that fuel, and getting everyone to buy new cars that use the fuel source. Everyone who drives is supposed to ditch their car, with no reimbursement, and buy a new one? Or if the government tried a reimbursement program, that means higher taxes and more national debt...

It's a losing battle right now.

I will get off my soap box now.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-12-2008, 09:42 PM
bigbluefj's Avatar
bigbluefj bigbluefj is offline
Honorary Canuck Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: canmore alberta canada
Posts: 1,121
Send a message via Yahoo to bigbluefj
Default

That's the problem we make it here and send it there and we pay more here??????

kevin
__________________
bigbluefj
1996 FZJ80 ARB FRONT BUMPER, SLEE REAR BUMPER, OME 2.5, SLEE STEP SLIDERS, TOYO MT'S, BUMP IT OFF ROAD SKID PLATE, SNORKEL.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-13-2008, 01:29 AM
corsair23's Avatar
corsair23 corsair23 is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Littleton
Posts: 8,698
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluefj View Post
That's the problem we make it here and send it there and we pay more here??????

kevin
Not to worry...A lot of what we suck up out of the ground down here we have to send up to you to refine so you can send it back to us

It is, and will continue to be, a global issue. Obviously there is not yet a shortage because the last I checked I can get gas no problem. I agree with Hayes in that this is NOT going to be a problem quickly resolved. How long will it take for all of the oil burning vehicles in the US to be replaced with alternative fuel vehicles, once they are even available? 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? How many people are going to run right out and buy the first CNG powered or hydrogen powered or whatever powered vehicle they can buy off a dealer lot to replace their 2, 5, 10 year old vehicle?

I visited the T Boone Pickens website today just to get a better idea of his plan. The plan? Put in a huge amount of wind mills in the Central US to replace the roughly 22% of the US's electricity that is produced today via CNG. Then, use that CNG to power vehicles vs oil and reduce our dependence upon foreign oil. He states this could happen fairly quickly and much quicker than say installing some nuclear power plants to do similar.

Well, I don't buy it. First, you have to build the wind farms. That won't be very quick. Then you have to get enough people to start buying CNG burning vehicles to use up the 22% of CNG that was previously used to make electricity. Of course you need a car manufacturer to make all of the CNG buring cars or come up with conversion kits for existing vehicles. Then, you need to add to the infrastructure to get CNG available to people to fill up or offer some sort of home fill up kit. It would sort of ruin the economics of it if people have to drive 10 or 20 miles to "fill up" somewhere that they can get CNG.

Don't get me wrong. I think T Boone Pickens has some good ideas but I also don't think he is being 100% up front with how long this is going to take to make a REAL impact. We need a multi-pronged attack which IMO includes drilling locally for oil (off shore, ANWR, oil shale, etc.) starting now to get us down the road another 10-20 years until new technology can start replacing all of the gas burning vehicles. One way or the other we'll need that oil eventually as it isn't just gasoline that we need oil for.
__________________
Jeff Z. (the "not quite as skinny" one)
TLCA #17037
'97 LX450 - aka "The Whale"
'97 FZJ80 Antique Sage AE #267, stock
12/74 FJ40, 2F, SM420, 4" Lift, ARBs, 33" MTRs

:

"...anything else i can do for you guys, how about i wash your car or mow your lawn while you figure out your firewall system? I am now boarderline insane/unibomber." Kipper

"That assumes I'm even capable of pulling and stabbing..." Jacket

"I really like having a detachable unit." Beater
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-13-2008, 02:50 AM
Hulk's Avatar
Hulk Hulk is offline
Cruise Moab Committee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: South Side!
Posts: 11,492
Send a message via AIM to Hulk
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair23 View Post
Well, I don't buy it. First, you have to build the wind farms. That won't be very quick. Then you have to get enough people to start buying CNG burning vehicles to use up the 22% of CNG that was previously used to make electricity. Of course you need a car manufacturer to make all of the CNG buring cars or come up with conversion kits for existing vehicles. Then, you need to add to the infrastructure to get CNG available to people to fill up or offer some sort of home fill up kit. It would sort of ruin the economics of it if people have to drive 10 or 20 miles to "fill up" somewhere that they can get CNG.
I do buy it. Maybe I'm just an optimist. If we make it a priority, and put some money and political will behind it, we can make it happen. More than any other country, Americans have the ability to make it happen when we decide that it needs to happen.

In 1962, JFK said this:
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
In 1969, Neil Armstrong was walking on the moon. That was in less than 7 years, and they had to invent everything from scratch.

Unlike NASA in the 1960s, we've already invented wind farms, turbines, and CNG burning vehicles. If it takes 20 years to build a bunch of fuel stations for CNG, then that's because there's no profit in it. Think how quickly Compuserve, AOL and Prodigy built nationwide networks of dial-up centers back in the mid-90s. If there is money to be made, American ingenuity will kick into high gear. Nobody is as creative as we are at solving problems to make money. Nobody.

If T Boone Pickens is involved in it, there is money to be made. He's no fool. I don't buy him as an altruist -- he's a capitalist.

In summary, God bless America, and may we tell all the idiots in the world to keep their damn oil.

Man, I should run for office. Or be a preacher. Hallelujah, and pass the pale ale.
__________________
Matt Farr, Centennial, Colorado | Webmaster: TLCA.org
1996 FZJ80 · TLCA #4189 · WØRDY
www.rustybrain.com/cruisers · my Rising Sun bio · Facebook · Twitter · Need satellite Internet? Check out: Exede Internet

If you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-13-2008, 09:34 AM
nakman's Avatar
nakman nakman is offline
Rising Sun Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: north side
Posts: 10,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk View Post
....Hallelujah, and pass the pale ale.
You got my vote, Matt. or prayer... you pick.
__________________
99 uzj100, 05 525EXC

www.gamiviti.com

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.