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  #31  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:50 PM
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I truly appreciate the insight, guys. At this point, I don't plan to do too much hard-core stuff, so right now it would be a rig I'd beat around in the mountains until I eventually build it up a little better. This would basically be a machine that I'd drive through high water crossings and not care if some of it crept into the cab and made it smell like a swamp for a few weeks. I also like the fuel injection, which seems to be better suited for high elevation trails. Also, I have always had a "thing" for those 4Runners without a top...

At the end of the day, it's just another toy for me to tinker with. Am I a bad person if I just love these 1980s Toyotas? There's just nothing like that little ticking Toyota engine.

I'd love to see some of your rigs at the next meeting if I can make it...just so hard to do lately between the new home improvement projects and kids...
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  #32  
Old 08-14-2008, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cbmontgo View Post
This is interesting stuff; you just don't seem to hear as much about mini truck these days, and I had no idea.
That's kinda like a rancher in Wyoming saying he's never actually heard much about African Americans, ain't it?


You won't hear much on Mud in comparison to other forums. You may hear some here. Minis take a back seat in Trails but they are there at least.

Most of the forums I hang on are more like, "Cruiser, what? Oh yeah, I hear the 80s are nice if you can afford the gas and squeeze one in your garage. I use the front diff in my 4Runner..."

Hey Subzali, you would do the timing chain but never a HG? The HG is the SIMPLE part! Going back in after having done a no-head-removal timing chain, not so much...

The alternator came out of the Chili when it had a 22RE without removing anything or draining anything. It was a Rubik's Cube exercise, but it did. I was running a 90s V6 radiator though (a worthy upgrade should your rad develop pinholes in the top, a common problem due to electrolysis, >120K miles). That lower hose placement is the deciding factor. The V6 rad gives an unanticipated benefit.

I wonder if simply unbolting the rad and the fan shroud, and sliding things passenger a tad would work? Dunno.

Regards moving the IFS box, I never had to - that one is a bit of a pain but not all that bad. Used the hammer mod on the firewall, and a shortened FJ80 pitman which slows the steering slightly - I like it. Or you can use short steering arms when you do the SAS. You DO need to brace the frame under the box though, whether SA or SAS. Ask Cheeseman about that. Very simple mod. There are kits, or there is the Sawzall/plasma cutter and steel stock, your choice.

I am a SAS guy AND an IFS guy. I don't find that the IFS rides all that much nicer than my SAS with quality springs (read: Alcan, $500/axle and worth it). I can zip right along over rough stuff in my SAS and have had guys running All-Pro / Marlin / TrailGear springs (pretty much the same stuff) have to fall back because their teeth were swapping sockets. The Taco with OME springs up front rides like a board. The '93 pickup is OK, but pretty boardlike too (stock suspension F&R, I expect the sacked rear to ride rough, but the front would soften up with a winch). Remove the front swaybar, have Beater make yard art out of it, and the IFS works slightly better. Wheeled a number of years with IFS. It will do it.

And you always have the option to cut it out later!

There is a lot of knowledge about minis in the club, any of the gentlemen with a mini can help. Or Squishy.
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  #33  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:01 AM
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We all have our opinions on IFS or solid, auto vs manual, gearing vs power etc. I tried to give him the general idea of what some owners do with their 4Runners/mini trucks. Of course $$$ is the greatest decision maker of all, I have a hard time building up an IFS only to go to a solid axle later so I would advice someone to start of solid or cut and swap to solid. About the same $$$ as a good IFS lift with long travel, maybe less.
This is sort of the rub, what the purpose of the truck is. The only thing that I probably wouldn't have spent money on was the front Air Locker if I was planning on an SAS, that is tougher to recoup. Although the locker itself is the same for the torsion bar IFS trucks as it is for 1996-2002 4Runners and 1995-2003 Tacomas, just different housings. So it would be harder to sell an assembled torsion IFS third member than just the locker by itself.

But other than the locker, an IFS truss is $75, idler truss is $50 and low profile bump stops are $30. That's all that is basically necessary to reliably take a 31" tire IFS off road. Throw in $100 for ball joint spacers and $100 for a pair of longer travel shocks and that's about the extent of what you can or need to do. If the eventual goal is 37" tires, I think that's an OK intermediate step that does not cost a ton of money and will wheel fine in the mean time. Lockers, skid plates and all that, not truly necessary and more so if you don't care if the IFS breaks before it sees the torch.

But my opinion is that no one should ever put one of those bolt-on lifts on an IFS truck, so that's money never spent. Now long travel, that's really a fork in the build road. A Total Chaos suspension will work pretty well, but I think someone who decides that route is probably not building a pure rock crawler anyway and wouldn't be narrowly focused on an SAS. I personally flip-flop between SAS and TC. At the moment, I'm leaning into the long travel IFS camp again and pretty solidly at the moment. Rubicon was fun, but it's really just not my cup of tea. I'm dragging around a long wheel base and camper, I have no business tackling hard core trails.
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  #34  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:36 AM
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Dave,
you are right on the nose with your comment regarding the purpose of the vehicle. That right there should decide what you are going to do, problem is that people flip flop and then waste money in the process.

My 91 4Runner was build in 93 so the choices were awfully limited. The things you talk about now did not even come into play then. I used a Pro Comp front set up that we modified some and custom rear coils from Alcan, those gave me some crazy flex making up for the front IFS limits.

I understand your position on the subject, it's just my take is a little different. It used to be 33" tires were huge, now me on my 37's are considered small (depending on the trail of course) The deal is that a lot of trails have changed so much over the years that you can't do them with 31/33's anymore. If all you want to do is 2-5 or 1-3 type trails you are fine with 31's IMO but it seems that people always get sucked into doing a little tougher trails than they should/can.

I think Carson has the right idea, he doesn't need a crawler for what he wants to do. Building up his IFS a little will enhance his ride and make for a more enjoyable time.

Carson,

Get out there and wheel the thing till you decide to change it up, if you do, then come back and all of us will give you our opinions on what you should do with YOUR money

PS Bill as soon as I find some money floating around, yeah right, Alcan will get a call. For now the Marlins are doing OK. They did send me some HD rear springs to try since mu others were sagging. I can't install them yet due to my back. I may put out a "Help" message in the near future so I can get them on before winter.
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  #35  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:41 AM
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Dave brings up a good point. I wanted to build a truck that would be comfortable on the highway and also on Holy Cross, Spring Creek, etc. To do that is a tad spendy. Worth it IMHO, but YMMV. You really need to decide what you want to do with your truck, then build it for that purpose. Then ask yourself if you just lied to yourself - or you will spend the same money twice, DAMHIK.

Having built a decent expedition/hunting/tough trail truck, though, I have a 93 pickup for daily use and as a dispose-a-truck. Only after I rebuilt the motor, clean things up, improve the interior with good used parts, etc. I am finding I don't DO dispose-a-truck. Oh well. But it will (knock on steel) never be SAS because that is not its purpose.

BTW, Dave, you can run 33s with only a BL, and 35s with a TB crank and a BL (and a hammer) so all that other IFS stuff is not really necessary. But for 31" wheeling, here is the mod list for a from-the-factory SA truck:
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  #36  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:42 AM
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seems that people always get sucked into doing a little tougher trails than they should/can.
LOL! Don't I know it...

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  #37  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:49 AM
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SICK IFS flex!
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  #38  
Old 08-14-2008, 10:57 AM
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BTW, Dave, you can run 33s with only a BL, and 35s with a TB crank and a BL (and a hammer) so all that other IFS stuff is not really necessary.
Ball joint spacers and cranked torsions with lower profile upper stops are a bad idea. Just my $0.02, but it should be one or the other for a max of 1.5" of lift. With tall stock upper bumps and the 1.5" SDORI spacers, my CV axles are right at their max droop without binding. Low profile upper stops /and/ BJ spacers, that would be many, many blown CV axles IMHO. I run 33x10.50 MTs on 3.75" backspaced 15"x7" wheels and I had to clearance my inner fenders pretty heavily with the BFH and I touch just slightly. It seems in my case 35" tires will mean Ivan Stewart fenders or at least cutting and re-building the inner fender for sure.

BTW, that flex is with 25mm torsion bars, imagine 22.5mm stockers! By my calibrated Stanley tape measure, it's an honest 8" window of wheel travel with the torsions not connected. It's pretty pathetic compared to a 4" lifted leaf spring front end, but it's on the better side of a decent stock suspension. Supposedly the stock torsion IFS is capable of 9" total travel, but before the spacers I had to really torque the arms with a cheater to get a legit 7". But my control arm bushings are 200,000 miles old and have lost their flex.
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  #39  
Old 08-14-2008, 11:14 AM
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LOL! Don't I know it...

Nice!
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  #40  
Old 08-14-2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveInDenver View Post
Ball joint spacers and cranked torsions with lower profile upper stops are a bad idea.
That's why I did not mention it, though it can be made to work (see next).
Quote:
With tall stock upper bumps and the 1.5" SDORI spacers, my CV axles are right at their max droop without binding. Low profile upper stops /and/ BJ spacers, that would be many, many blown CV axles IMHO.
Drop the diff. No more blown CVs. Angle it a bit and you still have a smooth front driveline too.

A BL has much to recommend it (within reason, 2" max - pulling the motor/trans is easier, wiring is simpler, you can raise your gas tank, you get lift with no suspension stress...). I am running stock suspension - no crank, 2" BL, 33x10.50 tires, and the only rubbing I get is at a slight turn and HAMMERING a bump. That is with no BFH mod, too. Put a modest suspension lift in the mix, drop the diff to save the CVs, do the BFH mod, I see no reason a fella could not run 35s if he was of a mind to. With little added stress (unless he got stupid backing up a hill slightly turned with the front diff locked).
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