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  #11  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:09 AM
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I wonder if this ins't a way for them to save money too?? They shut the line down like GMC did but with positive support and a glowing review by the press. In the meantime they are saving money and the dealers absorb some of the cost.

The dealers save some money since they don't have to use as much staff during the week, not much but some. I wouldn't doubt it if Toyota doesn't help the dealers out after this is all said and done.

So there is my conspiricy theory, feel free to discuss
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:19 AM
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Our 4Runner (as are all 120-series platforms AFAIK, FJC, Taco, GX470) was throttle by wire, couldn't tell you what interconnects the tranny/engine might have had. It did require your foot on the brake to shift out of park as I recall, so it must have had a solenoid interlock on that. One thing is for sure the parking brake was 100% mechanical foot operated and I don't think the computer could prevent moving the shifter from drive to neutral. No argument that a sudden acceleration could be stressful but I don't think the car would prevent a drive-to-neutral shift and stomping on the foot brake. Might be hard to do while juggling a coffee, talking on the phone and what-not, though.
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:37 AM
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[quote=subzali;134887]I heard of a story about a Lexus in California that was drive-by-wire everything (one of the earlier instances of this problem). Everything went wrong - the accelerator was pinned and the computer wouldn't let the driver move the gear selector and for some reason it wouldn't apply the brakes either, it all got recorded on a 911 call, and it was an off-duty police officer who was driving so it wasn't a case of incompetence. Anyway the car went about 120mph until his only choice was to drive it off the road and crash it.QUOTE]

I think this is either an out right internet legend or an exaggeration of fact. The brakes are still fail safe manual hydraulic even if the brake booster and ABS/ESP failed. There is no way for the car to prevent you from pushing the brake pedal down unless something is physically jammed behind it. Plus there is a mechanical emergency brake, he could have turned the ignition off, etc. I do believe the safety interlock could malfunction and prevent the transmission from going into nuetral, and many throttles today are electric (including my diesel truck). Conceptually I'm not a fan of FBW but all of our current generation military and civilian commercial jets are 100% FBW and it seems to be pretty reliable. Thats probably where the technology came from thats in the cars now.
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  #14  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:44 AM
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Not defending Toyota, but just to be clear there were two different issues that Toyota has faced related to the gas pedal. The first was around floor mats, specifically aftermarket or additional floor mats sliding forward and causing the gas pedal to become lodged in the mat and stuck. But this latest recall involves the pedal itself getting stuck. I don't think that for many folks they understand this difference, and just perceive that Toyota has a slew of ongoing problems with the gas pedal. I've already had several folks at work mention the "Toyota quality problems" to me with a sneer on their face.....

On a lighter note - saw a new 2010 4Runner in the parking lot today. I like it more and more each time I see it, which is something I never felt with the 4th gen.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:52 AM
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[quote=Air Randy;134902]
Quote:
Originally Posted by subzali View Post
I heard of a story about a Lexus in California that was drive-by-wire everything (one of the earlier instances of this problem). Everything went wrong - the accelerator was pinned and the computer wouldn't let the driver move the gear selector and for some reason it wouldn't apply the brakes either, it all got recorded on a 911 call, and it was an off-duty police officer who was driving so it wasn't a case of incompetence. Anyway the car went about 120mph until his only choice was to drive it off the road and crash it.QUOTE]

I think this is either an out right internet legend or an exaggeration of fact. The brakes are still fail safe manual hydraulic even if the brake booster and ABS/ESP failed. There is no way for the car to prevent you from pushing the brake pedal down unless something is physically jammed behind it. Plus there is a mechanical emergency brake, he could have turned the ignition off, etc. I do believe the safety interlock could malfunction and prevent the transmission from going into nuetral, and many throttles today are electric (including my diesel truck). Conceptually I'm not a fan of FBW but all of our current generation military and civilian commercial jets are 100% FBW and it seems to be pretty reliable. Thats probably where the technology came from thats in the cars now.

Stopping a car that has lost vacuum because it's at WOT is a really tough task.... especially if it has some power. I've done it a lot since we used to tune cars by loading them up with the brakes at various rpm's and throttle positions. It's amazing how much advantage you loose when the vacuum is gone.

E brakes work great at low speeds, but they overheat very quickly and become useless at Hwy speeds. Again, many times and don't ask why, but if you jam the thing on at high speeds it'll do something and you get a nice out of control spin since the average persons hands have probably left the lever and gone to the wheel to try and save it. If you bring it on slowly going fast they do tend to over heat and not work so well.

try it the next time you are in a rental car

get up to 60 or so, full throttle and pump the brakes so you use up all the vacuum (that's why they stated not to pump the brakes). Keep it at full throttle.. don't back off....

Then try the emergency brake trick. don't just cram it up, but bring it up slowly.

anyways, I can see how it'd happen.
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElliottB View Post
Obviously a sticky accelerator pedal is a problem BUT.... why wouldn't your first instinct be to turn the car off, put it in neutral, pull the e-brake, etc? It shouldn't happen in the first place, but it also shouldn't be killing car-loads of people.
rember that most of us on here are all car guys, and the majority of drivers on the road are not.. they just use the car as a mense of transportion, and they dont think of this things when there in a state of panic.

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Originally Posted by theboomboom View Post
Add to that a push button start, and there really isn't a way to just turn it off either. At first I was suspicious this was a cover for a recall of some other nature, but as complicated as these new vehicles are, they probably couldn't do anything simple to repair this issue without opening a whole 'nother can of worms.
even with a push button start you still need the key in the ignition (honda s2000 style) these newer bluetooth ones dont you just push the button twice to turn it off ??

and i had a quote up here about toyota steeping up to the plate but it didnt make it for some reason.. the one thing that i do know that set toyota apart from all the other manufacturs is that they will send out a nation wide recall for a stupid $2.99 non safty relaited item that in no way effects there name or repution that no one would even know about. or a massive recall. like this that they'r kinda forced to by not only the media but in this case safty.. toyota treats there customers as #1 like most company used to do 20 years ago. it seams busniess ethnics have lost there ways
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:21 AM
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I watched the new clip of the Konsumer Reports guy stuffing the gas pedal to the floor with his foot, then pumping the brakes repeatedly until the booster was exhausted, and proclaiming: "See - I can't stop the car no matter how hard I push." I can do this with my '78 FJ40 and it won't stop at all.

I have yet to see a real analysis of whether this an electronic problem, or a stuck floor mat issue. Recall the Audi 5000 issue turned out to be related to gas and brake pedal placement (lateral location in the footwell) was really operator error, not an true vehicle deficiency. Car and Driver magazine did a serious study of the Audi problem, and the media pretty much blew off the story after hte initial conclusion.
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:36 AM
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Something to keep in mind about brakes is that most new cars do not have vacuum boosters, the assist is electronic and the controllers for the ABS can vary which hydraulic circuit gets controlled. It can cut pressure to unlock a wheel or apply pressure to slow it down. That is all apart of the vehicle stability controller, which starts and stops wheel spin to correct your orientation.

I also personally had trouble if the computer controlling the ABS/ATAC/VSC messing with the brakes. That was one thing I did not like about that 4Runner was the anti-lock/anti-skid controller was really aggressive at throttle and brake control. Sometimes it would cut power and apply brakes when crossing an icy intersection leaving you vulnerable to a 'T'-bone as you creep through. Push the gas pedal as hard as you want, the fuel controller cut power to where there was zero wheel spin. As a result you'd go through an intersection as 2 MPH with your foot to the floor and the engine idling. It ignored the gas pedal in that case. Vice versa, if the ECU reset or crashed, perfectly possible that the fuel controller could wig out and go WOT with your foot off the pedal. A dirt sensor, solar flare, spilled Coke on the wiring, lots of possible reasons for it.

So I could absolutely see a Lexus getting into a confused state and mucking with the brakes such that you push the pedal as hard as you want and it not doing anything because of the anti-stupid controls kicking in. That happened to me and it really is a disconcerting feeling of having the pedal go to the floor and nothing happening.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:57 AM
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Happened to me on a BMW motorcycle too, with ABS. Just about took out the trash dumpster. That woulda left a mark. And I would not regard myself as a novice motorcycle rider. No matter how hard I applied brake, the brakes did not fully engage on a dirt road.

The option was, disengaging the ABS, which the German engineers kindly provided as an option. You had to stop the bike, hold the brake, I *think* hold the throttle, don't remember, turn off the bike, turn it back on. If the ABS light kept flashing at you, you had succeeded. Repeat every time you turn off the bike and restart.

Sold the bike.

Mind you, ABS saves lots of motor cop lives every year. I get it. I am just not a good candidate given my riding preferences. Dangerous in my case.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theboomboom View Post
I'm with Dave though, my accelerator pedal attaches to the floor on one end and a steel cable on the other. Only thing that can go wrong there is a PPO installing the wrong size cable
Although rare, even mechanical linkage can get "stuck"...Case in point was my '84 Subaru wagon. When it would snow and was real cold out, occasionally water would get on the throttle linkage and freeze the accelerator in position. Only happened a couple times but enough to me out...First time was on E470, heading to DIA and when I went to release the accelerator to slow down at the 470/I70 interchange (before they completed the flyover) the car just kept going...

As for newer cars, even with the push button start/stop aren't they designed so you can't turn them off while in motion? Just saying it seems plausible with newer cars that are almost 100% computer controlled that things could get out of hand...
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