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  #11  
Old 04-20-2006, 01:55 PM
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Let's see what the prototypes look like and how they perform. We chose teflon because of its ability to handle temperatures up to 500 degrees. Delrin is good to 185 degrees. We were unsure what temperature the rope may get to as it slid across the rollers. The teflon costs $22.25 per foot, delrin is $5.50 per foot. If a combination of the slippery roller and the slippery rope won't allow the winching rope to turn the roller then the teflon was a good choice. If the rollers turn, maybe the next batch should be made out of delrin. I'll let you know as soon as we spool up the rope.
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Miller
Let's see what the prototypes look like and how they perform. We chose teflon because of its ability to handle temperatures up to 500 degrees. Delrin is good to 185 degrees. We were unsure what temperature the rope may get to as it slid across the rollers. The teflon costs $22.25 per foot, delrin is $5.50 per foot. If a combination of the slippery roller and the slippery rope won't allow the winching rope to turn the roller then the teflon was a good choice. If the rollers turn, maybe the next batch should be made out of delrin. I'll let you know as soon as we spool up the rope.
Cool! I am using a polished aluminum Marlin fairlead and it works great! Just always on the lookout for cool factor stuff!
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2006, 03:38 PM
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The Sept. 2004 Australian 4WD Monthly magazine had an ad from a guy in California who was machining aluminum winch fairleads with features that looked like a frog's head (anodized green), hot lips (anodized red), and a skull and crossbones (clear anodized). Really cool stuff but it would appear he's gone out of business. His web site was www.rockdancerproducts.com. I sent him an email and left a message on his phone number but no reply. Easy stuff to CNC machine. Just need an artsy person to draw the different features.
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  #14  
Old 04-20-2006, 04:06 PM
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Dyneema and Spectra the 2 fibers syn rope is made from both have a very low melting point. I don't recall the actual temp. I do know, for Spectra at least, you can melt a it by rubbing 2 strands against each other under moderate hand pressure. So any thing that would reduce friction like Teflon and decrease heat would great.
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Old 04-20-2006, 04:30 PM
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One of those stories by Bill Burke that Wes posted yesterday (thanks, Wes!) mentions the detriment to synthetic line is actually "winching out," where you lower a vehicle using the winch, or just let out line with the winch running, instead of flipping the deal and just pulling. It's possible that the entire row of cable on the spool can melt doing this.. I though that was pretty interesting. fwiw.. :popcorn:
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Miller
Seth, We're currently machining replacement rollers for our Warn M12 fairlead using virgin teflon. Will let you know how it works out. What model of ICOM radio do you have? Are you an amateur radio op?
I think the model is Icom 2800 H but I will have to look. It came with another LC I bought. I have installed everything except the antenna in this LC because I have not finished the amateur radio class/book yet. I may have trouble convincing a cop that it is not functional but I hope I don't have to worry about that before I finish the class. Will you be at CM06? If so I would like to talk to you more about it. I have alot to learn.
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Old 04-21-2006, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seldom Seen
Dyneema and Spectra the 2 fibers syn rope is made from both have a very low melting point. I don't recall the actual temp. I do know, for Spectra at least, you can melt a it by rubbing 2 strands against each other under moderate hand pressure. So any thing that would reduce friction like Teflon and decrease heat would great.
Here is a quote form winchline.com - "The Viking Fire Line is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450 F and melting or char point at 900 F, you will never have to worry about melting this line to your winch drum. "
I'm not sure what the melt point of the standard Amsteel Blue is though.
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  #18  
Old 04-21-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorkel 1
Here is a quote form winchline.com - "The Viking Fire Line is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450 F and melting or char point at 900 F, you will never have to worry about melting this line to your winch drum. "
I'm not sure what the melt point of the standard Amsteel Blue is though.

Amsteel Blue is rated at 275*F melting point. The only possible time you could generate that much heat would be winching out. Even then it would take an extended amount of power out winch time. Automotive winches, especially large ones, just don't have fast enough line speed to friction heat the line unless what ever you sliding the line accross has traction such as rubber or soft plastic.
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2006, 02:13 PM
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One thing that concerns me is, in situations that would cause a winch to heat up, the steel cable wound on the drum would act as a heat sink, drawing heat build up away from the winch. Synthetic line would act as an insulator and may have been a contributing factor in Bill Burke's experience with the 1st wrap melting.

I use cord made with the same fibers as AmSteel and Technora all the time for climbing. The cord is spun and woven to give it different handling characteristics, but the physical properties are the same. Let me share a few experiences both good and bad.

Technora is tuff stuff. Very heat, abrasion and cut resistant. So much so I ruined a new Spydaco knife trying to cut some into usable lengths. It won't melt, you can't burn it with a lighter or melt it with a soldering iron, to singe the end to keep it from fraying. You have to dip the ends in epoxy. Technora will hold a knot. The problem with it is, it does not like to be bent over acute angles under tension. The fibers are fragile and repeatedly running it over, say a fair lead, at an extreme angle will damage it. I use High Tenacity Cord, a Technora product, tied in various size loops for rigging anchors. The manufacturer recommends that any knots that have been severely loaded be untied and retied in a different spot in the cord because the fibers that are tightly wound in the knot can be damaged and subsequent loading may cause failure.

Using a winch line made entirely of Technora would make me nervous, I wouldn't want to repeatedly run it through a snatch block. A line using Technora as the 1st wrap around the drum would be the way to go, just don't spool it out far enough where it might be bent around the fairlead, use an extension strap, and it will last a long time.

the UHMWPE, in all its different forms is weird stuff. When its relaxed it is hard to cut, but put it under tension and all you have to do is think the word knife and watch out!! Make sure you pad any rocks it runs over or use an rub guard. Under normal use it is rather abrasion resistant and as Mr Burke pointed out it only fuzzes or pills, under not so normal use its not resistant and can be deadly, I'll explain latter.

The stuff slipperier than snot on a door knob, it wont hold a knot, no matter how hard you try. Tie a knot in it and pull the knot will come undone. Climbing gear manufacturers that use this stuff to make webbing will only sell it in sewn loops.

As slick as this stuff is I have had it wear right through the anodized surface of a carabiner in a matter of seconds under body weight. If for some reason I was winching in and out with the rope running over the some spot on the fairlead, I'd be sure to check for damage.

During a climbing lesson an instructor did a demonstration that realy made a point. He fixed a Dyneema sling to an anchor, ran a cord through the loop and "sawed" the cord back and forth. In a matter of seconds the cord went right through the sling. The heat from the friction had made the frayed ends of the sling stiff and brittle. Not a situation I would expect when winching, but something that can and does happen every year killing climbers. When winching I will avoid potential friction points at all costs.

Mr. Miller's post on the low melting point of Derlin has me rethinking my choice of synthetic rollers. I can see a potential problem if for some reason the roller didn't roll and the line ran across the same spot. I'm thinking I'll wait till he comes out with Teflon ones.

Disclaimer, I'm not a chemical enginerd, these are just my real life experiences with products made of the same fibers in situations where my life depends in them.
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  #20  
Old 04-21-2006, 02:41 PM
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Good stuff, Brian, thanks! Man between this thread and the tire thread I'm learning a ton this week.. plug I got a new water jug!

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