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Old 04-13-2011, 05:38 PM
leiniesred leiniesred is offline
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Default Cruise Moab Trail Frequencies

Some of our trail frequencies we have used in previous years on simplex fall outside of the US band plan for 2 meter simplex.

Should we change our frequencies so that all of them fall into the 2 meter US band plan? Maybe it is a bad idea because some folks already have trails programmed from previous years? Maybe not because we're talkin' simplex here. set it and forget it.



Trail: old Proposed

CM11 Base 146.460 146.460

Area BFE 147.420 146.400
Behind The Rocks 145.510 146.415
Chicken Corners 145.590 146.430
Cliff Hanger 145.670 146.445
Elephant Hill 145.750 146.475
Fins and Things 146.420 146.490
Gold Bar Rim 146.600 146.505
Golden Spike 147.440 146.535
Hells Revenge 147.520 146.550
Kane Creek Canyon 147.560 146.565
Kokopelli Overnight 146.535 146.580
Metal Masher 147.480 146.595
Moab Rim 147.400 147.405
Poison Spider Mesa 147.600 147.420
Porcupine Rim 145.790 147.435
Pritchett Canyon 145.710 147.450
Rose Garden Hill 146.595 147.465
Seven Mile Rim 145.630 147.480
Swell Overnight 146.565 147.495
Tip Toe Behind Rocks 146.490 147.510
Wipe Out Hill 145.550 147.525
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:10 AM
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Seems like a good plan to me. Legal, and with no overlaps or conflicts.

Thanks for plotting this out Stephen.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leiniesred View Post
Some of our trail frequencies we have used in previous years on simplex fall outside of the US band plan for 2 meter simplex.

Should we change our frequencies so that all of them fall into the 2 meter US band plan? Maybe it is a bad idea because some folks already have trails programmed from previous years? Maybe not because we're talkin' simplex here. set it and forget it.


Keep in mind that Utah does not observe all of the ARRL/FCC approved band plans for VHF. See http://utahvhfs.org/bandplan1.html for info. They state on the webpage that:
Quote:
It is important to remember that the implementation of this bandplan by the Utah Frequency Coordinator does, in effect, supercede, the ARRL national bandplan.

...Even if other bandplan information (such as the ARRL national bandplan) shows a frequency segment as being available for simplex operation, please check the Utah Bandplan to make sure that such operations can be accomodated without causing interference to coordinated users.

...Only those frequencies specified in the Utah bandplan as being available for simplex operations should be used as such...

...each geographical area has specific frequency coordination needs based on geography and population distribution.
They use 20 KHz channel spacing on 2 meters. When Dave and I first looked at this issue, I thought we did a pretty thorough investigation on the subject. Then we did the trail frequency assignments according to the Utah VHF band plan. See http://utahvhfs.org/simpfreq1.html to find the specific simplex allocations for the 2-Meter band in Utah.

If after you read that page you in fact find that I was in error about where the simplex frequencies will not be appropriate for the Utah VHF 2-meter band plan, please let me know(just FYI for me) and they should be changed (By the CM committee).
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
See http://utahvhfs.org/simpfreq1.html to find the specific simplex allocations for the 2-Meter band in Utah.

IF I read that correctly that's only for the wasatch front

For the purposes of this document, the "Wasatch Front" area includes: Davis, Weber, Box Elder, Salt Lake, Utah, Morgan, Tooele, Cache and Summit counties.
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:30 AM
leiniesred leiniesred is offline
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Thanks, Groucho. I noticed that myself. I also noticed the same thing Wes has noticed. Moab area may not be affected. So, I posted up here for input from the experts.


I need to add more simplex frequencies to cover the additional trails we are running. Things like the kokopelli trip, 7 mile and area BFE.

I'll see if I can get some input from a coordinator in Utah too. Moab isn't exactly a hotbed of 2 meter activity, and we can always change frequencies if we find a frequency already in use, but just like you and Dave, I want to TRY to do the right thing!

<<EDIT 11:55am>>
I also sent a note to John Lloyd, a frequency coordinator in Utah requesting information about the 20 or 15 Mhz question.
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Last edited by leiniesred; 04-14-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesintl View Post
IF I read that correctly that's only for the wasatch front

For the purposes of this document, the "Wasatch Front" area includes: Davis, Weber, Box Elder, Salt Lake, Utah, Morgan, Tooele, Cache and Summit counties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leiniesred View Post
Thanks, Groucho. I noticed that myself. I also noticed the same thing Wes has noticed. Moab area may not be affected. So, I posted up here for input from the experts.


I need to add more simplex frequencies to cover the additional trails we are running. Things like the kokopelli trip, 7 mile and area BFE.

I'll see if I can get some input from a coordinator in Utah too. Moab isn't exactly a hotbed of 2 meter activity, and we can always change frequencies if we find a frequency already in use, but just like you and Dave, I want to TRY to do the right thing!

<<EDIT 11:55am>>
I also sent a note to John Lloyd, a frequency coordinator in Utah requesting information about the 20 or 15 Mhz question.
It would behoove CM 2011 to have a committee member contact John Mabey, W7CWK to clarify if anyone is concerned with the accuracy of the trail frequencies and being able to be used for simplex.

I am just going by memory from 2-3 CM events back when I was asked by the CM committee to compile the Amateur frequencies for trails. I still have my spreadsheet that I did, but that task mixed with the last year potential for a club repeater presentation has clouded my brain with what details apply to either situation.

AFAIK, Utah uses 20KHz splits between steps on the 2-Meter band for simplex operations. The frequencies listed on the page Wes quoted simply give us the information of what Utah uses as simplex frequencies with 20KHz steps. Officially the page denotes ARES and RACES and other emergency groups set simplex frequencies. If someone was to try and use 15KHz splits in Utah, there is a potential for operating 5-10KHz away from a set frequency for Utah, which would cause QRM. The likelihood of this is miniscule, but we wanted to be as close to proper as possible.

My recommendation with regards to "running out" of simplex frequencies for trails would be to double up frequencies (which I think we already did) for runs which are geographically far away from each other. Examples would be elephant hill and wipe out hill. They theoretically could share frequencies and not bother each other, especially if QRP is followed while grouped up on the trail. The only real reason to use QRO while on the trail is to call for emergencies, or back to camp, which would be done on the CM Base frequency of 146.460, eliminating the possibility of trail comms walking over each other.

My , but I'm more than happy to review things if need be. The amount of traffic on simplex freq outside the national calling frequencies is extremely rare, so this is really a mute point, but we thought it was necessary to run a top notch event like CM.
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:50 PM
leiniesred leiniesred is offline
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Default 15 vs 20. Thanks for the input

Nathaniel: Thanks for the additional information and offer to review. The more I look at it, read and learn, the more it looks like 20Khz is the right answer for ALL of Utah, not just the Wasatch range.

Funny how it varies by state!

OK, Referring to: www.utahvhfs.org/bandplan1/html

146.420-146.600: 2 Meter FM simplex operation (even-numbered 20 KHz channels beginning at 146.420 MHz)

147.400-147.600: 2 Meter FM simplex operation (even-numbered 20 KHz channels beginning at 147.400 MHz)

145.500-145.800: Simplex, miscellaneous/experimental (no repeater operation allowed per FCC part 97.205) using various modes (odd-numbered 20 KHz channels beginning with 145.510)


So how about this list of frequencies we can use?
It looks like FM phone has a typical bandwidth of up to 16KHz. so I left room for 8 Khz on both sides of the tuned frequency to stay away from adjacent assigned portions of the band plan. In particular, 146.600 and 147.600


146.420
146.440
146.460 CRUISE MOAB BASE CAMP
146.480
146.500
skip some hailing frequencies here...
146.580

147.400
147.420
147.440
147.460
147.480
147.500
147.520
147.540
147.560
147.580

and I think we can use the simplex all mode/experimental section too?

145.510
145.530
145.550
145.570
145.590
145.610
145.630
145.650
145.670
145.690
145.710
145.730
145.750
145.770
145.790


This would give us 31 channels to assign to trails?
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Last edited by leiniesred; 04-14-2011 at 02:29 PM. Reason: added the rest of the 145s
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:55 PM
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Would there be any way to keep the RS "Common Frequencies" clear for use or does that not allow us enough options for the trails?
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:07 PM
leiniesred leiniesred is offline
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Default 146.460

Aw shoot. I should have labeled that one, Marco. thanks! editing...
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:34 PM
leiniesred leiniesred is offline
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OK, so how about this. I left a couple of spaces at 146.600 and 147.600 for future trails.
I skipped some CB channels too. No one wants to be on CB13, right?



Trail Name CB Channel Ham 2 Meter Freq.
Cruise Moab Base Camp 4 146.460
Area BFE - Buggy 5 146.420
Area BFE - Difficult 6 146.440
Behind the Rocks 7 146.480
Chicken Corners 8 146.580
Cliff Hanger 10 147.400
Elephant Hill 11 147.420
Fins & Things 12 147.440
Gold Bar Rim 14 147.460
Golden Spike 15 147.480
Hells Revenge 16 147.500
Kane Creek Canyon 17 147.520
Kokopelli Overnight (TUESDAY) 18 147.540
Metal Masher 20 147.560
Moab Rim 21 147.580
Poison Spider Mesa 22 145.510
Porcupine Rim 23 145.530
Pritchett Canyon 24 145.550
Rose Garden Hill 25 145.570
San Rafael Swell Overnight 26 145.590
Sevenmile Rim 27 145.610
Steel Bender 28 145.630
Tip Toe Behind the Rocks 29 145.650
Wipe Out Hill 30 145.670
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