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  #11  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rzeppa View Post
When I was picking up my block at the machine shop the other day they apologized for not chasing the head bolt threads, explaining that they are an oddball 17mm pitch and they do not own a tap that size.

If an engine shop doesn't have one, they are probably pretty hard to find, and likely pretty darn expensive...
I have one if you need to borrow it.

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  #12  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:59 PM
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maybe rising sun should donate them a 17mm tap
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  #13  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Air Randy View Post
If you tell Gunn to rebuild the head they will check it for cracks first, then do the valves and resurface it to ensure it is flat. If you ask them, they will also do the oil galley plug for like $5.

Now that you have the head and valves off, you've done all the really hard stuff. If you want to install new rings just drop the oil pan. Take one connecting rod cap off and push the piston up and out of the cylinder. Rent a cylinder hone at one of the parts stores, hone the cylinder, install the new rings on the piston, compress them (another rental tool), squit some oil in the cylinder and gently insert the piston. Put the new bearings on the connecting rod, bolt and torque the cap, now do the other 5 pistons one at a time. Just make sure you put the piston back in facing the same direction it came out. Very easy to do. Not as good a true full rebuild but will add some life to the motor for very little money.

A lot of times when you do a valve job on an old engine (where the valves may not have been sealing perfectly for some time) you raise the compression in the cylinder. That can make the old piston rings die quickly if they are close to the end anyways. Thus the logic for sticking a set of rings in as a safety measure.
Hi Randy,

The head is at the shop as of this afternoon (Mile High Performance instead of Gunn). How hard is it to pull the oil pan & replace with the engine still in the truck? It seems like it would be super difficult, and horrible to do it poorly.
Interesting to hear that you pull the piston out of the top. I was imagining that it would come out of the bottom for some reason. I really like the idea of doing the rings, but I'm just not sure if trying is a good idea.
1. Do you think it can be done by me & my wife (I've got few skills & she has none really, but likes to help anyway) in a day, or weekend at the most, with only hand tools, outside?
2. Do you have any guesstimate of what it would cost? Also, if it helps I do have a small portable air compressor & an air wrench to help with turning bolts in tight spaces, but it is too small for big tools.
3. Any idea if anyone sells a complete kit for this type of thing, or do you have to know what to order?
4. Does it make sense to buy Harbor Frieght tools (hone & Compressor) instead of renting? They are cheap, but it isn't like I would be using them all the time.

thanks in advance for any advice!
Best,
Abe
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  #14  
Old 03-28-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8fulabe View Post
Hi Randy,

The head is at the shop as of this afternoon (Mile High Performance instead of Gunn). How hard is it to pull the oil pan & replace with the engine still in the truck? It seems like it would be super difficult, and horrible to do it poorly.
Interesting to hear that you pull the piston out of the top. I was imagining that it would come out of the bottom for some reason. I really like the idea of doing the rings, but I'm just not sure if trying is a good idea.
1. Do you think it can be done by me & my wife (I've got few skills & she has none really, but likes to help anyway) in a day, or weekend at the most, with only hand tools, outside?
2. Do you have any guesstimate of what it would cost? Also, if it helps I do have a small portable air compressor & an air wrench to help with turning bolts in tight spaces, but it is too small for big tools.
3. Any idea if anyone sells a complete kit for this type of thing, or do you have to know what to order?
4. Does it make sense to buy Harbor Frieght tools (hone & Compressor) instead of renting? They are cheap, but it isn't like I would be using them all the time.

thanks in advance for any advice!
Best,
Abe
I'm not Randy, but I can answer.

Pulling the pan can be easier sometimes while the engine is in the truck. How stuck it is on depends on how long it has been on there. When I did my daughter's 60 about a year ago it was a bugger because it had never been off ever I think. I did mine recently and it was super easy, my engine was rebuilt probably less than 10 years ago.

I have re-rung engines without taking the engine out. It is not too hard. Cleaning the carbon out from the piston grooves can be work. Make sure you keep your rod caps with the rods and oriented! Also, make sure you stuff rags in the bottom of the cylinders when you hone so you don't get anything on the crank.

More answers:

1. Yes

2. I also had MHP do my machine work just now, including head, but they put chebbie valves in so it cost more than if they re-use your old valves, springs, and keepers. You should probably expect to pay $200-$300 for a standard head job. Mainly that will be for recutting valves and seats, checking springs and guide wear, checking flatness and redecking if necessary and inspecting for cracks. Might include magnaflux too, dunno. Your air ratchet will speed up some of the disassembly, there are (I think) 22 bolts that hold the pan on.

3. MHP can sell you the rings from their supplier, or you can order them from SOR. They aren't too expensive. You might consider replacing all the rod bearings while you're in there. Again you can get those through MHP or SOR. Also, not too costly. And you're in there anyway.

4. Hones and ring compressors are not costly (maybe $10 or so?) and you can usually get them at any parts store in addition to Tool King and HF. I haven't really seen much difference in quality from one hone or compressor to the next. Of course you are welcome to borrow mine.
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  #15  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:01 PM
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When I hone cylinders, I like to take electrical tape and put it around the rod journals on the crank to keep crap out of the little oil hole in them to. Make sure you wash all the crap out of there when you're done. I use brake cleaner or something.

if you pull the rods out of it just try to be super clean. any crap that gets in between the rod bearings and the journals (or mains/journals for that matter) will ruin a good set of bearings. Also, make sure you are careful when you replace those bearings.. the little tangs that hold them in place can get bent and bind things up. Just make sure they are popped into their places nicely before putting the caps on and tightening it all down.

Like Jeff said, keep the rod caps with their respective rods and oriented right. keep the bearings in the same spots if you are reusing them too. don't do it outside if it's windy.. you gotta keep it all CLEAN.
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  #16  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:57 PM
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All good answers. I think you were asking about the estimated cost though to do the re-ring job versus the head rebuild. I think the last set of rod bearings I bought was $35 and a decent set of piston rings was like $60, plus you will need an oil pan gasket for $10.

If you go to AutoZone you will need to get: A ridge reamer to remove the ridge that builds up at the very top of each cylinder so the pistons can pop out without cracking a piston; a cylinder hone; a piston ring groove cleaner; a piston ring compressor and a torque wrench. You can "buy" those from Autozone then bring them back for 100% refund when you're done, thats how they operate their tool rental program. I also have all of those tools if you want to borrow them.

If you schedule it in advance I'm sure myself, Ricardo and probably others would be glad to give you a hand. Once you have the oil pan off, and if you have the tools above in hand, we can easily complete the re-ring process in 4 hours.

If the vehicle is easy to move, we could even winch it up onto my car trailer and bring it down to my shop to put everything back together. That way we have plenty of room and all the tools required to deal with any issues that may arise.
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:42 PM
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Hey guys,
Sorry to let this drop for a few days. i got stuck doing some minor stuff on my troopy, which turned into much longer, slower projects than I thought.

Randy, if you or someone else is willing to help me out to make sure this job goes right, I'd be more than grateful. I'd be willing to fire up the grill & keep the cooler stocked with beer to make it a great day. I'd also be willing to be an extra set of hands to help on your projects as well. Sometimes extra hands rock! Also, if you were willing to use your shop/trailer, I could tow the truck to the bottom of Magnolia road in Boulder Canyon, which has a big parking lot & would be easy to load it up. It is easily snagged where it sits, but I wouldn't want to trailer it down magnolia. But I could strap it to the road & roll/break it down the hill. I could be free just about any weekend, or even a weekday if it was best. Just let me know what timing would work for anyone else.
So parts-wise at this point I think I need":
1. Head gasket
2. intake/exhaust gasket
3. Valve Cover gasket & new nuts/seals I think
4. Thermostat gasket
5. ???? other head job gaskets?
6. Ridge Reamer/hone/ring compressor thing
7. rod bearings
8. piston rings
9. rags/cleaners/some sort of assembly lube
10. Oil Pan Gasket
11. Rod bearings? Rod Caps (or are they re-usable)?
12. should I go all oem or does it not matter for this type of work?
13. oil/fluides

Anything else? I think that sounds like the full list, but that is just compiling from your guys' posts above.

thansk,
Abe
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8fulabe View Post
....
So parts-wise at this point I think I need":
...
5. ???? other head job gaskets?
...
7. rod bearings
8. piston rings
...
11. Rod bearings? Rod Caps (or are they re-usable)?
...
Anything else? ...
You probably need a side cover gasket as well. Regarding the rod bearings and rings, size matters. When you go to by the bearings and rings, the supplier will need to know if you need standard or oversize; and if oversize how much oversized. If you do not know the history of the engine, you should determine the apporpriate size to avoid getting the wrong parts. Do you know if the engine has ever been worked on before?

Your rod caps should be re-usable.
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2012, 10:03 AM
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Good point, if the engine has been rebuilt/bored out before now then the piston rings could be .010 over sized already.

Do you have access to an ID caliper to measure your cylinder bore? Maybe Marco or someone out in Boulder could help you with that. That way you can be sure. Also, when the time comes to buy piston rings, get the better quality ones. One of the big differences is, the cheaper ones require you to align the ends of the oil wiper ring very precisely. It is very easy to accidentally overlap the end of this ring which will hurt your compression slightly and not get as good of an oil seal. The better quality rings come with a little pin & hole on the ends of the ring so the pin goes into the hole and makes it impossible to overlap the ends. I forget which brand those are but I know Sasch/Nattybumpo got that style when he bought his parts from Gunn Automotive.

If you get the better quality stuff from Gunn, IMHO, you can save a bunch of money versus buying OEM and it should work just fine. I've never bought OEM gaskets or parts (rings/bearings, etc) for any of the F/2F's I've worked on and so far have not had any issues (knock on wood).

Getting a side cover gasket is not mandatory since you don't have to remove that cover for this project. However, sometimes in the process of cleaning off head gasket crud, some of it falls down into the lifter galley. If you have the time, it's not a bad idea to pull it so you can clean that area out good.

I didn't pull mine off when I did the shade tree rebuild on my first F motor. Later, we replaced the cam and lifter and pulled that cover. The entire lifter galley was filled with what looked like oily charcoal. Literally, we had to crack it with a screw driver and pry the chunks out. It's amazing that any oil got down in there where it was needed. The previous owner probably never changed the oil and ran a super dirty air filter for this crap to build up like that.

If you are in a hurry we will have to do it at your place. My shop is booked this weekend for Easter and work on the race car, the following weekend is the next pre-Moab wrenching weekend and then I have to get my rig ready for Moab.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2012, 10:29 PM
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the responses. No rush on the timing. This could easily be after Moab. I haven't even heard if the head is okay yet, let alone gotten a timeline for when it will be done (I told him no rush, if any priority biz came up).

I can definitely get the better quality parts, that's for sure! If i can't borrow an ID Caliper, I could possibly rent one from napa. Again, not a rush, as the job done right is better than a job done fast. I will say though, that I would love to not replace the side cover gasket becuase it has ZERO miles on it. I replace it when I did the dented side cover, and was working on the newer dizzy, that led to this job. So it is effectively brand new. but if I have to replace it, that is fine.

I guess I will just keep cleaning it up & etc.... & give you guys an update when I hear anythign from the shop. We can take it from there later...

thanks,
abe
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