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  #301  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:45 AM
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second one is hilarious.

your rig turns over a bit faster than mine did with the non gear reduction starter.

It starts nicely too. mine i have to feather the throttle to keep it idling even after using the choke and after it fires.
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  #302  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:04 AM
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Luckily my turn signal caught it or I might have had a broken iphone...
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  #303  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:24 AM
spectre6000 spectre6000 is offline
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It starts pretty easy now. The partially grenaded starter was just functional enough to fool me a bit. It can take some turning first thing in the morning to get it to catch, but once it's good it's good. If it's really cold (like this morning at -2) it will occasionally want fuel on top of the choke in the form of the accelerator pump being worked a bit. I haven't driven it since yesterday's tuning extravaganza, but I have a feeling it'll behave quite nicely going forward.

Speaking of yesterday... What a day! Long and productive, met some pretty awesome guys, and passed out the second my head hit the pillow! I left the house around 6:45 to head down to AirRandy's shop to meet up with Ricardo. When I get there, BigCity was already half may through removing his tranny due to a crappy input shaft bearing. Ricardo spent all day dancing beween the two bays helping everyone get their jobs accomplished, Randy was in and out, and I helped out where I could with the transmission work when priorities dictated.

We started with a baseline. Set the timing (I must not have tightened the distributor clamp all the way out of paranoia from the first one breaking, as it had wandered back to 7), checked the compression (my tester was found to be broken after my attempt lead to a freak out session, and the compression was found to be very healthy with a good tester), then installed the O2 sensor. I had Bud's install a bung on my new exhaust when I got that taken care of, and the guy forgot to weld it in until after the exhaust was already in the truck. As a result, it was a little off center, and the pipe prevented installation of the sensor... Due to a complete lack of clearance, the exhaust had to be mostly removed from the truck, and a dremel was used to clean up the problem. Once rectified, the exhaust was reinstalled, we wired in the rest of the wideband harness, plumbed it through the kick vents, and we were off to the races!

Unfortunately, I wish to note here that due to time constraints and the fact that I had earballed it pretty close to start, photo documentation did not really happen... Sorry. If this proves to make a significant difference, we'll do someone else's truck and do it better with photos.

First things first, we set the idle. 650 RPM, 14 advance, and 14:1 AFR. AFR at idle is controlled by the idle mixture screw. You can get 14:1 with a 55 slow as well as an 85 slow, the only difference is the number of turns.

Next, we took it for a baseline spin. Jets to start were 60 primary slow, 118 primary main, 70 secondary slow, 200 secondary main (this was known to be very rich), and 80 power. The primary slow was dead on in the 16-17 range. Couldn't ask for anything better. Primary main was a skosh rich, secondaries were close and really rich (as low as 10), but without getting the primaries in, secondaries and power are a best guess scenario.

We rolled back into the shop, and I set about changing the jets. I forgot my jet grabber screw driver, and had to partially disassemble the carb for every change... The next primary main I had down was a 114, and the next secondary main down was a 180. Those were swapped and we went for another run. We discovered at this point that there is a delay in the wideband, and this combined with lots of closely spaced hills make for a really tough time nailing down circuit transitions... Eventually, it was decided that both mains were now a touch lean with primary coming in around 18-19 and secondary around 14-15. Power was still coming in 10-11.

Back to the shop, I reamed the 114 to a 116 and reamed the 180 to a 185, and changed the power valve out for a 60. Put it all back together and went for a run. This time things were NOT reading right... I was getting 19:1 at idle and pretty much through the primary progressions... Really not cool. At one point it stuttered and since the fuel gauge was on E (an exceedingly common state so far in my LC ownership), we stopped at the gas station. I couldn't think of what I could have done that would cause it to read so lean, so I took a screwdriver to it at the gas station to try to get it back in check. No response to the idle mixture screw, so I had either introduced a vacuum leak or... On the way back, once I got up on the throttle a bit it cleaned up nicely.

Back to the lab... I THINK what happened is that the gasket (a bit worse for wear after having been messed with so many times) was misaligned and was covering up the primary slow jet passage between the body and the air horn... Best guess, not sure. Once I got it back together though, I went for another run, and things were pretty damn close. It was dark, and BigCity's rig needed to be buttoned back up, so that was the last run. This time, things were looking REALLY good! Primary slow (hasn't changed since the beginning) was right in the 16-17 butter zone, primary main was just a skosh on the lean side in the high-17 - low-18 range, secondary slow was in the 14 range, secondary main was a buttery 13, and the power came in and kept it right at 13...

At that point, I pulled all of Ricardo's wideband kit off my rig, drove it back outside, and came in to help finish buttoning BigCity up and clean.

I'm going to have to wing the last bit by ear without further access to the wideband, but I'm close enough that I know where I need to be. I'm going to ream the 116 to a 117 and ream the 70 to a 75 (hopefully... those slow jets don't look easy to ream). While I'm at it, I'll mark the modified jets accordingly for future reference.

It's worth noting that this tuning was done in the cold. Cold air is more dense than warm air and tends to read a bit lean as a result. My mixture will richen up a bit in warmer weather, but I think that's acceptable (and I don't want to rejet seasonally since I'm not racing this truck or anything).

I had intended to follow a procedure that is much more precise and methodical from the start, but given that I was so close to start and the time constraints it didn't make much sense. If this proves effective (there is doubt out there), someone wants to volunteer their carb, and Ricardo cares to lend his wideband services again, we can go through the whole thing and document the crap out of it. I guess mine is going to be a proof of concept test in the meantime.

For the record it sounds MUCH better now, and at one point on the way home I looked at the speedo and was doing 80 without realizing it... It will also maintain 70 going up 25... The timing certainly helped a bit, but timing doesn't make an engine sound that crisp. I'm hoping to see fuel economy bump up closer to 15. With things cleaned up like they are, I have to use considerably less pedal, and when I do use the pedal I know it's burning less fuel. I'm going to get those last two jets dialed in over the next few days, then I'll fill the tank and have my first fully tuned baseline figure. Wish me luck!

Last edited by spectre6000; 02-11-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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  #304  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre6000 View Post
....First things first, we set the idle. 650 RPM, 17 advance, and 14:1 AFR. ...
IIRC we were at 14 on the advance when we started. It was nice to meet you yesterday. I'm sure we'll do some more AFR tuning moving forward.
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  #305  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:11 PM
spectre6000 spectre6000 is offline
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Yup. Typo. Corrected. The feelings are at the least mutual. I'm really looking forward to getting to know this group!

I just came in from adjusting my brakes (fronts lock first now and locking is finally possible), adjusting the tire carrier (it was knocking against the tailgate last night on the way home), and reaming the jets to their final spec. I attempted to rectify an issue I'm having with the windshield washer reservoir, but I won't know if it worked until the lines have a chance to warm up and get flexible again. The washer fluid is definitely something that needs to be rectified somehow, but that's about the only thing on the docket at the moment...
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  #306  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:16 PM
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Wow, great job!

You really persevered through some challenges to get that little F running, and running well!

I would really like to do some analysis on my 2F. It is a '78, so I do have different carburation than yours, but it would be cool to put on a wideband on and do some data-logging.

Good job...
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  #307  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:44 PM
spectre6000 spectre6000 is offline
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Unfortunately (and humorously) we weren't able to do any real legitimate logging (save some hasty pecking in the Notes app on my phone)... Ricardo rode copilot and shouted out the numbers as best he could keep up (they change pretty rapidly when you're fighting all of those hills), and the last round I kept one eye on the computer monitor and one on the road. I had to compare those numbers to the load conditions, RPM, and throttle position in my head while we were rolling to figure out what was needed where. It was without a doubt some of the best fun I've ever had tuning an engine!

If I were to do it again with an unknown rig (especially one where the linkage isn't worn to the point that you can feel the transition to the secondaries in your toes), and considerably more time, I would follow a COMPLETELY different procedure that is much easier to follow than the way we did it yesterday. If we do this with someone else's rig, I'll be much more scientific about it and we'll do a thorough writeup.

If I can get my hands on one of those carbs to tear down and figure out what changed between '74 and '78, I'd be more than happy to help. I saw an '82 carb (I think that's what year it was), and there were a number of changes that seem fairly impactful on function and tuning. This was my first time tuning a progressive carburetor, but I think it was a success. The proof is in the pudding, so we'll have to see what the numbers say after my next full tank (I wish had had a bunch of errands or something to run so I could burn some gas!).

For anyone keeping score, on my complete (all emissions kit) stock 1.5F in a stock rig save 31" tires and Pertronix electronic ignition, my ideal jetting for 6,500' is:

60 primary slow
117 primary main
75 secondary slow
185 secondary main
60 power

Yielding 14:1 idle, 16-17:1 in the primary circuit, 13:1 in the secondary, and 13:1 when the power valve comes in under load. Performance is noticeably improved. MPG TBD, the number to beat is 11.

Unless you are running the exact same combo (with the same level of wear and tear) at the exact same altitude, your results will likely vary.
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  #308  
Old 02-11-2013, 05:16 PM
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subzali subzali is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre6000 View Post
...For anyone keeping score, on my complete (all emissions kit) stock 1.5F in a stock rig save 31" tires and Pertronix electronic ignition, my ideal jetting for 6,500' on a cold day is:

60 primary slow
117 primary main
75 secondary slow
185 secondary main
60 power
FIFY

I like it.

Without having an ECU to tell you throttle/engine load and the corresponding AFR, what are your plans to be more scientific about your approach? I'd be curious what your plugs tell you in a couple thousand miles as well. What octane gas are you planning on running?

From the little bit of reading I've done, I thought you wanted to shoot for 12-13:1 while under load, up running around in real world conditions. Do you foresee any problems with 16-17:1? I imagine fuel economy will like the leaner conditions, just wonder if that's a little too lean.
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  #309  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:11 PM
spectre6000 spectre6000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subzali View Post
FIFY

I like it.

Without having an ECU to tell you throttle/engine load and the corresponding AFR, what are your plans to be more scientific about your approach? I'd be curious what your plugs tell you in a couple thousand miles as well. What octane gas are you planning on running?

From the little bit of reading I've done, I thought you wanted to shoot for 12-13:1 while under load, up running around in real world conditions. Do you foresee any problems with 16-17:1? I imagine fuel economy will like the leaner conditions, just wonder if that's a little too lean.
Yes, on a cold day (or winter season). They run leaner in the winter because the air is more dense and there is more oxygen for a given volume, so summer will fatten up a bit. I'll cross that bridge when I get there... Most likely I'll be tuning my '57 Karmann Ghia for the altitude in summer and drive that most days.

I'll just be running regular unleaded. These things are too low compression to entertain spending the money on much else.

The strategy with an unfamiliar engine and more time is to address it circuit by circuit. Baseline, then start by taking out the primary main stack and disconnecting the secondary linkage so all you have in play is the primary slow. Set idle, and then go for a roll. It'll run just fine to a point (then it'll fall on its face), and it will tell you exactly what AFR your slow jet is giving you through the progressions without the main clouding things. Get it dialed in where you want it, then add the main stack back in, and take it up the rest of the way and dial in. Then remove the secondary main stack (if you haven't already), and get the secondary slow, and repeat the above procedure for the secondary main. Up to this point, it's really nice to have a fairly flat stretch to do all of this testing, because I don't know how to take the power valve out of the equation in these carbs. Find a hill (now that everything else is dialed in), and run up it at full throttle to get your power valve reading and dialed in. It takes a lot of runs and a lot of carb wrenching to do it right.

What you've read stating 12-13:1 is all about (or from the perspective of) tuning for power. The hottest AFR to run is 14.7:1 (gasoline stoic). Airplanes set mixture manually, and the metric is ROP/LOP or rich/lean of peak, peak referring to exhaust gas temperature. ROP is for high power needs, LOP is for cruising (economy). Above that and below that runs cooler (and healthier) in an engine. The leaner is hotter is true from the "ideal" 12-13:1 until you get back above stoic sufficiently to cool it back down (though with less available power) until it starts stumbling.

With cars, most driving is done in the primary circuit. You don't go around everywhere with the pedal on the floor, you give it just what it needs to go however fast you want to go. When you DO need power, you put the pedal down to get it. If you tune the primary for economy, and the secondary for power you get the best of both worlds.

There is an audible difference between the two AFR ranges as well. When an engine is in the 16-17 range (LOP) it's very crisp sounding with more pronounced higher order harmonics (if you're into acoustics). When an engine is in the 12-13:1 range, it sounds more growly with an emphasized mid-range.

I agree, it's going to be interesting to see how things pan out. I live at 8K', so everything I did yesterday is effectively out the window up here and it's all rich. But I do most of my driving down between Denver and Boulder, so the 6,500' tune will be a little on the lean side if anything. It should be a pretty good middle ground that's drivable just about everywhere from the front range up. I'll have to carry a second set of jets if I plan to go much lower.
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  #310  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:49 PM
spectre6000 spectre6000 is offline
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DISCLAIMER: OK. For starters, I do not claim these results to be the most reliable.

I went down into town to try to find a replacement washer pump, pick up some groceries, and burn some gas to see how the final tuning ended up. I filled up at the gas station nearest the house (Sinclair station at about 8k'). I don't like filling up there because canyon gas is expensive gas, and the pump is too fast and has a tendency to overfill. This is precisely what it did, and it got some gas on my keys (which were left in the fuel filler flap). Odometer at fill up: 25,144.2. Then I drove DOWN. I ran around town doing my thing and ended up as far out as Jim's Yota Yard. I made it a point to drive with fuel economy in mind. This essentially means I kept my foot in the primary circuit, didn't speed (much), accelerated reasonably (again, kept my foot in the primaries), and gave myself room to brake at my leisure versus slamming on the brakes. I came back and filled up at my regular pump at the westernmost King Soopers in Arvada at about 6K' for a net altitude delta of ~-2K'. Odometer at fill up: 25193.8. Total miles driven: 49.6. The odometer has the stock gearing for 29" tires, I'm running 31" tires. The difference is 6.7% for a true mileage of 52.92. I put 2.938 gallons in the tank. That works out to 18.01 MPG.

I do not think this is accurate, just sharing the data point. I think the first fill up compared to the second resulted in more gas being in the tank at the start of the run than at the end. Additionally, the drive up the canyon uses a bit more gas than the drive down, so that's obviously skewing things over such a short run. That said I'm also pretty sure it's not a full 6 mpg (~50%) off, so I think there has definitely been some improvement. I'll have to burn through a full tank and fill up at the same pump to get a better data point... This is the first time I've been annoyed that I work out of the house and don't do a lot of driving...
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