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Old 02-01-2007, 08:46 AM
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DaveInDenver DaveInDenver is offline
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Default 22R-E Chain Cost and Advice

I've had next to zero legitimate bites for IFS gears, lockers and tires (the rear RD23/5.29 is the only thing worth anything apparently). I'm just gonna have to face reality and spend new money on the truck. I was hoping to get some money to do the engine right. So I'm setting out a plan to get it running again and am looking for some thoughts and get a handle on how much I need to scrape up, here.

I shouldn't have an major issues with bent valves or anything, which is good. But I did blow a chain link wide open, which means there's probably some metal debris in the pan. It's probably no smaller than the oil pickup can deal with, but should I be worried about it? My pan does not leak now and that to me is not a small factor. Dropping the pan means taking the front diff out, not an insignificant amount of work when you're crawling around in a cramped garage with poor light on a cold garage floor. Also the engine is about 200K old now, which I think is the point IMO where I probably need to be thinking about overhauls of major systems. I'm also assuming at this point that my timing chain cover is still OK, my guides /should/ not have been an issue being metal-backed DOA. I won't know for sure until I take the cover off, though.

So what do you think? Just do the minimum, just new timing gears, chain and gaskets? I will be using OEM parts this time, although I'll probably keep the DOA guides. Everything else will be Toyota.

My compression wasn't great before, but it was even across all 4 cylinders, so I wonder if the stretched timing chain had some affect on the compression numbers?

Should I drop the pan for an inspection?

Think it's worthwhile rebuilding the head? I'm sure the valve springs and seals aren't in great shape anymore. I do get a pretty significant puff of smoke on start up, some of which is probably oil leaked into the combustion chamber. I wasn't planning on a new cam or milling the head, so a rebuild would be just a clean-up and refurbish to stock specs. I know it can't hurt to face the valve seats and replace the valves, but is it worth the time if I'm not doing the bottom end, too? I'm assuming that stuff like built up carbon is going to be on the pistons and rings, too? I've always had to run 91 octane to keep from knocking. What can I expect to spend if I just have the head cleaned up? Do I need a new cam and valves or are the old ones kosher to reuse?

Is it worth pulling the head just to replace the headgasket (i.e. no head rebuild)? I'm consider this route primarily because I'm thinking about pulling the intake plenum off to clean it and the injectors, as well as the throttle body and maybe finally get at that darned fuel filter. If I've got the intake off, it shouldn't be much more work just to get at the headgasket. I replaced the exhaust manifold with the header about 2 years ago, so hopefully the liberal use of copper anti-seize will make removing that less painful.

Just trying to figure out where to go from here.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:23 AM
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Evrgrnmtnman Evrgrnmtnman is offline
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Dear Dave,
I just went through a broken timing chain on my 22RE with 190K. I decided not to take the head off, because I had a rebuilt head put on a year and half ago. I bought the chain, cover, guides, water pump, oil pump, basically the whole kit! Spent all the time replacing that stuff, went to start it up......
And guess what?????? The valves were bent in the head! Since, I've replaced the head recently, and have a small crack in the block anyway.....
I'm replacing the engine this summer... I thought I could get away with just replacing the chain and save some time......this might be a good time for a rebuild if you have 200k....My advice for what it is worth.......
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:48 AM
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My experience is that getting a valve job done when you have the head off is money well spent. If you take it to a good machine shop, they can tell you whether the seats/valves/cam need to be replaced. I've refreshed engines several times with a valve job, and occasionally a new head. I've only done the bottom end once, with new rings, crank bearings etc.

Your biggest expense will be the valve job. My memory may be dated, but last time I did a 2F head it cost about $200. The rest of the expense will be your labor.

Don't know if this is true with the 22R-E engines, but with 2F engines there is a big difference between the Toyota head gasket and aftermarket ones. I found this out the hard way.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:29 AM
SteveH SteveH is offline
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I doubt a stretched timing chain would affect compression. With the smoke at startup, I'd get the head done. 200K is a lot of miles. At least replace the valve stem seals...

I would use genuine Toyota parts, too, after my Japanese-made '5-star' brand timing chain tensioner got noisy after 20K miles. (this is typical, I hear). It would clatter on startup as the chain hit the case, and take 15-20 seconds to quiet down. The 5-start stuff is far cheaper than the Toyota parts, but you apparently get what you pay for.

My experience was on an '89 4Runner with 200K on the 22RE

Steve
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:21 AM
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Dave,

First of all, what happened? Something sudden? (Sounds like?).

Anyhoo, first of all, the pan can come off without pulling the diff. I did it on my daughter's 85 runner.

Second of all, quick and easy way to check for bent valves is compression test. If they're bent, there will be no compression in that pot.

Third, as has been mentioned above, genuine OEM are best, particularly for the chain tensioner. The aftermarket ones that come in the kits are generally only good for 20k or so. I've been told of ways to do the chain without pulling the head, but if I were you I'd pull the head anyway. That way you can make all the inspections and measurements the FSM specifies to determine if the head needs more work. At a minimum you can re-surface the valves and seats, replace the stem seals, check the springs and guides. Not to mention clean the carbon off!

If I were you, I'd call Joe Calleja at CTS at (303) 838-4772 and pick his brain. He has always been right-on in his advice to me, and won't steer you into anything that costs more than it has to. And he'll give you options should you choose to have him do any or all of the work. Good luck!
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:45 AM
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d00d-
Glad I came upon this, I am about to save you beaucoup bucks and you will have OEM quality. Not 'OEM-like', but OEM or better than. I am not hyping.

Go to Enginebuilder. LC Engineering and DOA hate the man, which I take as an endorsement. Ted there has been building 22REs since dirt got hard. His parts are OEM or better than, and for a very nice price. His son, Todd, now runs the company but both offer very good advice. Ted was capable of building a normally aspirated 22RE that produced 140HP at the crank and was still ideal for trails. And you couldn't ask for a nicer guy who will do a better job of standing behind his products - not so his competition.

Note the prices, especially on a full master kit:
http://www.engnbldr.com/ToyotaHotLicks.htm

Note the price on a NEW HEAD with OVERSIZED SS VALVES that has been thickened in places the stock head tends to fail (coolant passages). These are rock-solid heads. This saves you all the machine work, and gives you better than stock performance with an RV cam from Ted that is very, very trail-able.

You've already pulled the pan, goodonya. I know lots of guys won't replace the HG, but that seems foolish to me: you need to check the block deck and head for utter flatness, and as mentioned 200K without doing a valve job is asking to go back in there and do all that nasty work again.

Now pull the motor, strip it down and take it to a machine shop, buy Ted's head, Ted's RV cam, and his master kit (minus the parts you won't need because of the new head), put it back together, just try to wipe that grin off your face after you take it for a test drive, and be the envy of every mini driver in the club.

Just a note: I am an avid OEM Toyota-only parts guy. But I would rather buy from Ted than Toyota, and I would follow his advice over anyone else on the planet. That is a significant endorsement.

All you minitruck guys need to surf 4x4wire.com occasionally, lots of good knowledge about minis there. [shameless plug]
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
DOA will do a complete long block for $3250 and a short block for $2200 with cast pistons and $2800 with forged. LCE is $3500 for a long block with forged pistons and $2000 for a short block (cast pistons I think).
AAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!




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Old 02-23-2007, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveInDenver View Post
I've had next to zero legitimate bites for IFS gears, lockers and tires (the rear RD23/5.29 is the only thing worth anything apparently).
I've got a friend who may be keenly interested in the 5.29s, front and rear, IFS. PM me.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili View Post
AAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!




As King Arthur put it....
Yep, that's what I've run into! For that price you might as well do a 3.4 conversion....Trying to find a good low mile LC Engine or other well built engine on the boards. Any ideas on where to get a good 22RE....
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Old 02-26-2007, 10:00 AM
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Did you determine that the bottom end needs rebuilding? Is there something wrong with the block? Even if you need rings, why buy a short block? Pull the motor and rebuild it yourself. With a 2F, it's possible to rebuild the motor while leaving it in the engine bay. Not sure about the 22R-E, although I'd bet it's easier to pull than a 2F.

Or maybe I'm missing something here -- I'm not always the brightest bulb on the shelf.
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