Rising Sun Member Forums  

Go Back   Rising Sun Member Forums > Toyota 4x4 > General Tech Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-27-2005, 11:03 AM
ericjcline
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default hey guys! looking for your opinion on a build of a '40...

ok, i have been having a casual discussion about the direction a '40 of mine should go... what would YOU do? i am a member of wasatch cruisers and i am polling them to see if there is any magic ideas i havent thought of. i figgered youz guys might have some ideas too! i have an opportunity to build a '40 from the ground up and i am trying to figger out how i should do it.

a few stipulations- it MUST remain TOYOTA

now, this isnt to exclude aftermarket suspension and the like. it is meant to mean a toyota engine, tranny, and axles. ANY toyota engine, tranny, and axles.... well, that would presumeably fit into a '40 without destroying the body. imagine going to TLC or cool cruisers and saying 'build this...' what would your list include?

spring-over, taller spring-under, coils?

saginaw power, FJ60 power, FZJ80 power, minitruck power (steering, that is)

33s, 35s, 37s? 31s?

trim the body and add integrated body protection, or leave it with the stock lines and THEN protect?

color? factory originals, or something new? powdercoat and then paint, or galvanize and paint, or galvanize, powdercoat, and then paint?

aluminum, fiberglass, or steel?

zinc-ed hardware or stainless?

road AND dirt truck, or dedicated dirt? dedicated road :p ? mud, rocks, dirt, or all three? how would you build it to handle all three, and the road?

what would YOU want?!?! or, what would YOU buy, if there were one available for, say, $40K....


e
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-27-2005, 12:24 PM
Shark Bait's Avatar
Shark Bait Shark Bait is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 4,582
Default

Eric,

I will say I think having a good rock crawler and keeping it 100% Toyota is kind of mutually exclusive. An H42 4-speed tranny and an Orion box from AA would be about the closest you could get. SM420 tranny with an early Toyota t-case is a popular option, too. Lockers would be a problem also unless somehow you could put 80 series axles underneath. There are a lot of options. In the $10-$15k range you could build a pretty awesome wheeling machine, IMO, but it probably would not be all Toyota.

You could wait for an FJ Cruiser. :p They will probably top out just under $30k.

If money is no object, go to Proffitt's Cruisers and have them build you something. I'm sure you'll be happy!
__________________
Chris Hatfield, TLCA# 2768, KCZAB
Ad Sales Manager, Toyota Trails/tlca.org
'11 Tacoma '07 GS350


Last edited by Shark Bait; 11-27-2005 at 12:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-27-2005, 04:29 PM
ericjcline
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
I will say I think having a good rock crawler and keeping it 100% Toyota is kind of mutually exclusive. An H42 4-speed tranny and an Orion box from AA would be about the closest you could get. SM420 tranny with an early Toyota t-case is a popular option, too. Lockers would be a problem also unless somehow you could put 80 series axles underneath. There are a lot of options. In the $10-$15k range you could build a pretty awesome wheeling machine, IMO, but it probably would not be all Toyota.
thanks for the reply, bait!

well, my current FJ40 is running a 2F to H55F to split case. not as deep as the 420, but the only trails i havent been able to do are the little sluice on the rubicon, pritchett canyon, and upper heldorado. have done lower without a problem. i thought maybe a split case with 3:1 low gears might be a good way to go, but that almost seems TOO low... what about a cable or ARB locker in the front? i have yet to meet someone with an ARB that doesnt/hasnt leaked though, so that is a drawback...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
You could wait for an FJ Cruiser. :p They will probably top out just under $30k.
yeah, true, but just about everybody i have spoken with has some sort of significant complaint about the thing. colors arent right, no solid front axle, too wide, blah blah blah. and frankly, i dont like them that much either. it looks too much like an H2, and isnt all that comfortable inside. i went to the SEMA show to see it and it is neat, but i was more impressed with the new RAV4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
If money is no object, go to Proffitt's Cruisers and have them build you something. I'm sure you'll be happy!
that is kinda the route i want to take. i am thinking about having him do coils on my 40... just trying to get more ideas to mull about before going that way! 350 miles is a long way to go to leave a truck, i wanna have a plan!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Rzeppa's Avatar
Rzeppa Rzeppa is offline
Cruise Moab Committee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kittredge CO, USA
Posts: 5,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjcline
road AND dirt truck, or dedicated dirt? dedicated road :p ? mud, rocks, dirt, or all three? how would you build it to handle all three, and the road?
Hi Eric, the above really is the key to the answer. What is it for? Trailer queen rock crawler? Daily driver? Work truck? Expedition rig? The answers to what you want it for make every difference in how you build it.

Here's my own answer:

I am restoring my beloved 76 40 back to near-stock. Only non-stock is H41 tranny, OME suspension and lock right in the rear. With 33s it should do fine at Moab and get me to and from work as well as it has for 23 years.

My 71 40 is also a dual daily-driver and weekend trail rig. It has 33s with mild lift, a CB and a lock right in the rear and that's it. When I'm done with my 76, I will spring it over, add power steering (probably FJ60), front disks and fine spline birfs, a 4 speed, maybe an Orion or 4.56s, and 35s. Maybe a Toyota FZJ80 locker in the front, or an ARB. In any case, it will still be able to be driven to and from the trailhead, but just not as friendly commuting on the highway.

My 1978 FJ45 is totally bone stock and is staying that way. It's not only too pretty to take out and bash on the trails, but I need a pickup truck to haul stuff around.

The farther you go from stock, the farther you go from factory reliability and from the versatility to go on or off road.
__________________
Jeff Zepp
Kittredge CO USA
1971 & 1976 FJ40s, 1978 FJ45, 1987 FJ60
Rising Sun 4WD Club, TLCA #4063
http://american3dprinting.net/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-28-2005, 08:28 AM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default

Quote:
The farther you go from stock, the farther you go from factory reliability and from the versatility to go on or off road.
Absolutely right. Just look at my sig.
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-28-2005, 08:43 AM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default OK, I'll stir the embers...

Nobody says you have to stay with the Toyota parts that actually CAME on your cruiser... I agree with the sentiment that all Toyota will be more reliable. It is just cooler too, IMHO.

Now here's a thought from a minitruck guy: why not use the more-modern, more-efficient parts that came on various minitrucks? Build a vehicle that Toyota SHOULD have built, and COULD have built with already available parts. That has been my design mantra.

Below would be my dream cruiser, I have not seen one quite like this to date. You would be the first maybe, but you would still be maintaining Toyota reliability instead of GM ... uh, I'd better not say. I'll get pummelled.

Most cruiser builds look like formula builds to me. Not that there is anything wrong with that... :p In fact, that is pretty much the approach I took with the Chili, frankly; I just recombined parts of formulas. I inherited proven solutions by so doing, instead of reinventing the wheel so to speak. But there are a few Toyota formulas that no one has combined, or not many, anywho.

1) The 3.4 V6 or newer Toy V8s maybe. You can blow the 3.4 reliably. You would actually gain in emissions, in mileage, and in reliability, not to mention cool factor. Very clean too. Chebbie 350s have never struck me as anything but available and fairly cheap, though I'm not so sure about the 'cheap' part by the time most guys are done with them. They are definitely not efficient IMHO. LT-1s maybe, but you are still dealing with antique design.

2) Stick with the tranny/tcase that came with the powerplant. Or, go with a dual ultimate from Marlin. Inherit all the development work that has been done, reliably, for minitruck mods. There are many combinations of engines/trannies/transfer cases from minitrucks that would work really well. The R151 is good, the R150 (especially 96+) is better, though it requires an adapter plate to use a geared tcase. Yes, you want a geared tcase.

3) Spring-over leafs are simple, reliable and cheap. If cheap is not so much a concern, SpiderLegs sure looks like he has a good system. Visit at the next club meeting.

4) FZJ80 axles (reference SpiderLegs above). Or Tundra axle in the rear, 80 in the front. Visit www.offroadsolutions.com for an example of a 4Runner MONSTER truck that uses these and breaks only under the most EXTREME conditions. Your cruiser could be very similar to 'Baby'. (by the way, 'Baby' is for sale and could be robbed for parts, or just slip a Cruiser body on her.... ohmygosh that would be a truck...)

5) Get Brian Ellinger (Front Range Off Road Fabrication) to build you custom axle housings (www.DiamondAxle.com). You could then go for the minitruck 8" rear diff, electric locker, hell for stout and perhaps the easiest third member on which to work that has ever been made, save the Ford 9" (which would also be an option, and Brian could make it work, but it's not Toyota). Put an FZJ80 high pinion elocker 8" third in the front, with chromo axles and Longfields. Nearly unbreakable. Cryo the R&Ps if you are nervous about those. IMHO, that is not really necessary with sufficient carrier bearing preload, but take my opinion on that with a grain of salt if you are really hard on equipment.

6) IMHO the 40 is shorter than I like and a bit narrow for my tastes (rollover resistance, and vulnerability to endos). The 80 series axles deal with the narrow part, the SpiderLegs reference vehicle deals with the short part. Stretch it. Makes more room for the driveline and double transfer cases too. Room for parts and equipment too, in the rear box.
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.

Last edited by Red_Chili; 11-28-2005 at 08:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-28-2005, 09:30 AM
Rzeppa's Avatar
Rzeppa Rzeppa is offline
Cruise Moab Committee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kittredge CO, USA
Posts: 5,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
Nobody says you have to stay with the Toyota parts that actually CAME on your cruiser... I agree with the sentiment that all Toyota will be more reliable. It is just cooler too, IMHO.
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
Now here's a thought from a minitruck guy: why not use the more-modern, more-efficient parts that came on various minitrucks? Build a vehicle that Toyota SHOULD have built, and COULD have built with already available parts. That has been my design mantra.
Answer: Because to a great extent, minitruck parts are smaller and lighter duty. Mini trucks are lighter than cruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
1) The 3.4 V6 or newer Toy V8s maybe. You can blow the 3.4 reliably. You would actually gain in emissions, in mileage, and in reliability, not to mention cool factor. Very clean too. Chebbie 350s have never struck me as anything but available and fairly cheap, though I'm not so sure about the 'cheap' part by the time most guys are done with them. They are definitely not efficient IMHO. LT-1s maybe, but you are still dealing with antique design.
I really don't think the 3.4 has enough grunt for a big, heavy cruiser. The 1HD-T (which is a factory-turboed 1HZ) is made to power a Land Cruiser. It is very similar in size and weight to the F/2F series. Having driven the 1HZ for four years, I can report that the torque curve goes down to about 600 RPM. It's like having an extra low gear, except you don't need the extra low gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
2) Stick with the tranny/tcase that came with the powerplant. Or, go with a dual ultimate from Marlin. Inherit all the development work that has been done, reliably, for minitruck mods. There are many combinations of engines/trannies/transfer cases from minitrucks that would work really well. The R151 is good, the R150 (especially 96+) is better, though it requires an adapter plate to use a geared tcase. Yes, you want a geared tcase.
Again, I don't think the mini trannies are up to cruiser-duty. The H55F is the best manual tranny for a cruiser. If you are going to maintain the cruiser rear axle, then you must use the cruiser t-case with the offset rear output. The later model split case with the massive 38mm idler is killer, and can be regeared for 3:1. Alternatively, the cast iron Orion can get you 4:1 if you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
3) Spring-over leafs are simple, reliable and cheap. If cheap is not so much a concern, SpiderLegs sure looks like he has a good system. Visit at the next club meeting.
I do think that to a great extent, coils are better than leaves, but they are more complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
4) FZJ80 axles (reference SpiderLegs above). Or Tundra axle in the rear, 80 in the front. Visit www.offroadsolutions.com for an example of a 4Runner MONSTER truck that uses these and breaks only under the most EXTREME conditions. Your cruiser could be very similar to 'Baby'. (by the way, 'Baby' is for sale and could be robbed for parts, or just slip a Cruiser body on her.... ohmygosh that would be a truck...)
Tundra in the rear would require a centered rear output t-case. And 80 axles can and do break: see Slee, Christo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
5) Get Brian Ellinger (Front Range Off Road Fabrication) to build you custom axle housings (www.DiamondAxle.com). You could then go for the minitruck 8" rear diff, electric locker, hell for stout and perhaps the easiest third member on which to work that has ever been made, save the Ford 9" (which would also be an option, and Brian could make it work, but it's not Toyota). Put an FZJ80 high pinion elocker 8" third in the front, with chromo axles and Longfields. Nearly unbreakable. Cryo the R&Ps if you are nervous about those. IMHO, that is not really necessary with sufficient carrier bearing preload, but take my opinion on that with a grain of salt if you are really hard on equipment.
Having worked on both 8" mini and 9.5" cruiser third members, I'll take the cruiser one every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
6) IMHO the 40 is shorter than I like and a bit narrow for my tastes (rollover resistance, and vulnerability to endos). The 80 series axles deal with the narrow part, the SpiderLegs reference vehicle deals with the short part. Stretch it. Makes more room for the driveline and double transfer cases too. Room for parts and equipment too, in the rear box.
Having wheeled both shorty 40 and long, I find that different lines are different. Some obstacles are easier in the 90" WB, some are easier in the longer WB. No question though, adding a little to the rear by flipping the rear springs and/or the rear shackle hangers gives more driveline options, such as adding a toybox.
__________________
Jeff Zepp
Kittredge CO USA
1971 & 1976 FJ40s, 1978 FJ45, 1987 FJ60
Rising Sun 4WD Club, TLCA #4063
http://american3dprinting.net/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-28-2005, 10:43 AM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
Now here's a thought from a minitruck guy: why not use the more-modern, more-efficient parts that came on various minitrucks? Build a vehicle that Toyota SHOULD have built, and COULD have built with already available parts. That has been my design mantra.

Quote:
Answer: Because to a great extent, minitruck parts are smaller and lighter duty. Mini trucks are lighter than cruisers.
D00d, on minitruck parts not being strong enough, ... au contraire, mon frere. WAY au contraire. VERY common misperception.
The R151 is essentially the same as the other *151 tranny that was factory installed on ONE cruiser or another. The R series trannies hold up to V8 power. The Tundra axle I conceived of would be behind a minitruck (centered) drivetrain.

The geared tcase is the very same one used in Marlin's ToyBox for cruisers. Handles LT-1s.

Have you looked at 'Baby', referenced above? Uses minitruck parts. Yes, he breaks parts (interestingly, the cruiser parts, not the minitruck parts). No, I will never wheel like Mike does. He's a nice guy and all but IMHO he's nearly certifiable.

The unbreakable thought was primarily regarding the Diamond Axles and cryo'd / Longfield stuff. Anything is breakable given the right situation...

I would not shy away from minitruck drivetrain parts due to strength concerns...
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-28-2005, 12:13 PM
wesintl's Avatar
wesintl wesintl is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: in da house
Posts: 7,552
Send a message via AIM to wesintl
Default

I'd probably go with a fzj80 engine, drivetrain and axles with coils. Maybe even a uzj v8 in a 40 or a 40 body on 80 :p

staying Toyota, what else is there....
__________________
See you on the trail
WREK
Couple o' FJ40's, BJ70, UZJ100, TDI 66FJ40,82FJ60,97FZJ80
TLCA#4180
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-28-2005, 01:57 PM
bh4rnnr's Avatar
bh4rnnr bh4rnnr is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton
Posts: 3,924
Default

If I were to build a cruiser. Think i'd use 80 series axles with e-lockers. I like coils but am a big fam of the simplicity of leafs. Plus they are easy to set up, dont have to worry about angles etc.. Always liked the early Lexus LS400 v8 motors. Light and had good power. Plus way reliable. Would put it up with some type of rockbox. Dont know about what tranny i'd use.. Would run either 37/38 inch tires.
__________________
-Perry Loughridge aka "Skelator" aka KDLDQ
4th gen Coloradoan.
-87 Toyota 4runner. Flat bed by Proffitts Cruisers 5.29 gears, rear locker. 33" mt/r tires. Snackster cooker. Eazi-Awn 1200 RTT and more tube work by the Homegrown Crew . And still more to come


COLORADO: my "Monument in Green"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.