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  #11  
Old 12-11-2005, 06:35 PM
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Rzeppa Rzeppa is offline
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Those singing praises of FIPG have evidentely left out their experiences with removing an oil pan which has been FIPG'd in.

I will relate that an oil pan that has been FIPG in for a few months is only slightly easier to remove than a stock F/2F one which has been in place with no goo whatsoever for 30 years or more, and that a factory FIPG oil pan which has been FIPG in is WAY more of a PITA to remove than nature's own cork. Removing an FIPG pan over a year or two is WAY more of a PITA than removing a factory cork gasket of even 30 years old or more, in my first hand experience.

FIPG is for dealership techs who will never see that engine again and will never have to deal with dropping that oil pan again. It is for factories who want to save a few bucks on skimping on a real gasket. FIPG is for trail fixes when you don't have the proper cork gasket handy or for cheap-a$$ed factories or dealer service departments who won't spring for a real gasket.

For an F or 2F oil pan service, get a real OEM cork gasket. Use a thin amount of RTV sealant such as Permatex Ultra Blue at the corners, as recommended in the factory service manual. Use a slight amount all over the gasket sealing surface of the surface of the pan, using a couple of pan bolts to hold everything in place. This is for assembly aid, not for sealing.

The next time you have to drop your oil pan, you will be very glad you didn't use FIPG exclusively.
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2005, 06:53 PM
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I will behave and continue to bite my tongue over this post.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzeppa
Those singing praises of FIPG have evidentely left out their experiences with removing an oil pan which has been FIPG'd in.

I will relate that an oil pan that has been FIPG in for a few months is only slightly easier to remove than a stock F/2F one which has been in place with no goo whatsoever for 30 years or more, and that a factory FIPG oil pan which has been FIPG in is WAY more of a PITA to remove than nature's own cork. Removing an FIPG pan over a year or two is WAY more of a PITA than removing a factory cork gasket of even 30 years old or more, in my first hand experience.

FIPG is for dealership techs who will never see that engine again and will never have to deal with dropping that oil pan again. It is for factories who want to save a few bucks on skimping on a real gasket. FIPG is for trail fixes when you don't have the proper cork gasket handy or for cheap-a$$ed factories or dealer service departments who won't spring for a real gasket.

For an F or 2F oil pan service, get a real OEM cork gasket. Use a thin amount of RTV sealant such as Permatex Ultra Blue at the corners, as recommended in the factory service manual. Use a slight amount all over the gasket sealing surface of the surface of the pan, using a couple of pan bolts to hold everything in place. This is for assembly aid, not for sealing.

The next time you have to drop your oil pan, you will be very glad you didn't use FIPG exclusively.
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  #13  
Old 12-11-2005, 06:58 PM
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FIPG is a change in technology, yes it saves some time, but will also bond the pieces together for more structruical integerity of the pieces. More modern engines are built differently.
Wes I am not discounting it as a only thing, just have not heard of any one just relaying on it for a pan on a older rig. One big concern is the loss of volume in the pan and the placement of the oil strainer. Both changes without the cork in it proper place. You may be looseing upt to 1/2 qt over the surface X width X lenght of the pan at that level. As for the chance now of underfilling on the dip stick.Then how close is the strainer to the pan, hopefull enough space to still provide flow when the pump is sucking at it hardest. Just some thoughts. later robbie
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  #14  
Old 12-11-2005, 07:20 PM
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Wow, formed in place gasket, learn something new every day, expecially since I'm young! But hey I'm catching up to you guys...oh wait So if I screw this up I'll be out a cork gasket (if that's the way I choose to go) and some time.
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  #15  
Old 12-11-2005, 07:51 PM
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FIPG earliest use I know of was the 2.4 GM V-6. GM had horrible efforts in resealing the upper end of that engine and developed a metal forming concept on the tin and aluminum covers that allowed the FIPG to cling and seal much like an O-ring. A few manufactures played with this concept as it not only sealed fairly efficiantly but it saved assembly time and of course money. The japanese came to the rescue again and started using o-rings. FITP IS NOT A GASKET REPLACEMENT! It is designed to be used on covers that have a half round (or multiple) cavity(s) pressed/machined into the surface.

If you ever have to depend on the red box's to feed your family you would never "flat rate" anything as critical as a oil pan gasket thinking "just get it out and never see it again!" You do learn tricks and you also quickly learn problem areas but a professional would never count on not seeing the same vehicle again! In fact if your worth your weight in gear oil you hope the customer likes your work and you WILL get the trust to work on that vehicle again!!!!! The term "shadetree mechanic" is earned by those who do have the mentality that "If I just get it out the door it will be OK!"

This thread is killing me as some folks actually believe they know more than factory trained and hired engineers whom have more lab time and technology at thier disposal from vehicle manufactures that survive on vehicles not leaking on the showroom floor! Wonder if anyone here that likes RTV on a entire cork gasket has ever seen an oil pump drive shaft that is perfectly twisted from hardened end to hardened end by a very tiny fragment of "silly putty" that prevented the new oil pump gears from passing each other? (I know F's don't use a OP driveshaft but they do have shearpins)

OK.....so I couldn't behave and my tongue was starting to hurt....but RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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  #16  
Old 12-11-2005, 08:43 PM
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I'm not a professional mechanic, never held myself out as such. Only relating my own shade tree howler monkee experiences over the last dozen or two oil pans, and more factory-intended cork oil seals. This is on Fords, Chevys, Plymouths and mostly Toyotas.

Unlike shops, when I do a repair to one of my own rigs, I live with the results. Often, for many years (decades) and many tens or hundreds of thousands of miles.

My personal experience, in particular with Toyota factory oil pan gaskets with Land Cruiser F and 2Fs and Runner 22RE, is that FIPG is a total PITA to remove. More so than 30 year old cork, which is also a PITA. In my experience, if you don't put some RTV at the corners of the factory cork gasket, you will leak. In my experience, if you do put a thin smear of RTV on each side of a factory cork gastek, it will peel right off and need no scraping, even after 5 or more years of service. In my experience, aftermarket 4 piece F/2F cork gaskets are a worthless waste of time. The Factory glued-together and formed gasket is so superior it far outweighs the slight cost savings from aftermarket 4 piece gaskets.

My personal experience with "professional" mechanics over the last couple decades has caused me to move all my work in house. Across the board, from shop to shop, they are not as competent as many would like to believe. This includes several prominent Rising Sun supporters, as well as independent wide-range shops, who I personally like and won't slam by name, or use myself.

Back on topic, factory cork for tha F/2F oil pan can not be beat. You must use goop per the factory manual at the corners. A very thin film on each side will aid assembly and ease future disassembly. A thicker coat will hose you, don't use too much! Just my personal exerience over many years and Land Cruiser engines.
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2005, 09:19 PM
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Fipg can easily be removed with a wire brush, either the long handle wood kind or the wire wheel of various sizes.
Not all FIPG users have the mentallity that you talk about Jeff. Any how it is funny some times how threads go off in different directions. later robbie
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2005, 09:48 PM
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Jeff.. What do you use when a cork gasket still leaks? and I'm almost as oem as you can find.

I've used both and will continue to use what I think is best suited in my app.

FIPG or oem gasket in this case being cork.


oil pan Gasket is 12151-61010 and about $20
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2005, 10:05 PM
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Wow, what a great thread I started! I think I should also spend the time/money to get a FSM for my truck this break! I've put that off too long! Adding that to my list of priorities...okay before or after the cork gasket?
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2005, 10:07 PM
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RTV is used on joints, irregularities and damaged sealing surfaces. Spray Coppercoat is a good light sealer for most gaskets if allowed to dry before assembly. Factory gaskets should always be used UNLESS a design change in the assembly warrents a specialty gasket. As Robbie pointed out, a thin application of weatherstrip adheasive is an industry standard trick of securing difficult gaskets (one side only!) so hands can be free to manuver pans/covers into place. Consumer RTV use has probably made more shop owners/mechanics mortgage payments than any other over the counter material!

Cork gaskets are excellant especially when the manufactures started adding bits of neoprene in the compound. The biggest reason for failure is overtightening. When assembling ANYTHING, a criss cross pattern should be employed so even pressure is applied. Never tighten one bolt then another but rather continuous snugging followed by final tightning. In the case of cork or neoprene only tighten until slight bulging happens. Never tighten to the point of a "tight" bolt! Use of "slick" sealants on cork or neoprene (rtv, grease, oil, wet Coppercoat) will encouage the gasket to squish and fail. RTV (silly putty) being a liquid will not compress and will deflect out from between the sealing surfaces. If you see the RTV bead outside then you can bet the same amount is squeezed inside! As pointed out, you do want a dab of RTV wherever gaskets mate, crossing other gasketed area's and sharp corners.

O-rings and flat gaskets should always be torqued to spec as they are usually found on aluminum accesories. A light spray of Coppercoat on flat gaskets will insure sealing without weepage. (Again, let the Coppercoat dry before assembly or it will stick and be a PITA to clean off later!) Aviation sealer will seal well on damaged flat gaskets but is a major PITA to get off! A light coat of oil on an O-ring will ensure it comes out next time the part is removed. If the o-ring is prone to slipping out of position before it gets sandwiched some white lithium lube will usually keep it in place long enough. Never use moly based lubes on o-rings as it can attack natural rubber that o-rings are often made of!
If a flange type of seal is needed and a gasket in unavailable use a flange sealant instead of RTV! Flange sealants are designed to be put on very thin and even and they are resistant to flaking off at the edges incase of over application. Anti-seeze should also be used on torqued bolts and any steel bolt threaded into aluminum!

Hope that helps! Sorry if my professional factory training let anyone down!
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I need an FJ40....
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Cruisers are superior
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