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  #31  
Old 10-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Bikeman Bikeman is offline
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Two more points, then I have to get office work done before I leave:

Dual suspension bikes can be graded with a report card- style format:
1. How well does it react to small and large bumps, the whole range?
2. How efficient is the design, bob-free, or a major power-robber?
3. Does the design go rigid or harsh under braking forces.

Many botique bikes do this sooo poorly, and alot of brands you are paying for the name. I've sold them all.

Secondly, I have demo bikes you can ride on your favorite trail in your size, which is my size, from 29'er rigid to 4,5 and 6" travel dual-suspension bikes.
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  #32  
Old 10-24-2008, 02:49 PM
Bikeman Bikeman is offline
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I am in Mon-Sat, except Thursdays. We are closed Sun. from Oct to the end of March. Mon-Fri: 10-6, Sat: 9-5.

In the mean time, check out Giant's website.
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1997 FZJ80, White, Locked, deflared, 5.29'd, 4-5" lift, Fox's, DC shafts F/R, 35" AT's, Metal Tech front bumper w/ winch, custom tube rear bumper, SROR sliders, IPOR skid, Custom exhaust, Snorkel, Eezi-Awn 1600, Mark's Speedo Box.

2008 Subaru WRX Wagon, mods and lifted on 27's

2001 Honda XR400 with goodies
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  #33  
Old 10-24-2008, 03:01 PM
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DaveInDenver DaveInDenver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikeman View Post
If you are going to buy something earlier and looking at dual suspension, please don't buy something that costs alot that has 15 year-old suspension technology that I see all the time still being made (single main pivots that rely on shock technology to lessen bobbing).
Single pivots and platform shocks may be old and band-aid fixes, but someone should tell that to Cannondale-Monavie guys riding Scapel and Rush frames out at Moab. Bart Gillespie is one friggin' fast S.O.B. Also Josh Tostado won this year solo on a Superlight with Tinker close in second on his Scapel. There's a reason they are still hanging around, simple, light, royalty free... The newer stuff has it's advantages, but enough people still like the bike equivalent of manual trannys and carbs. Me, I like EFI trucks and VPP bikes, but that's not for everyone.
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  #34  
Old 10-24-2008, 05:00 PM
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subzali subzali is offline
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Okay, so help me break this down: I looked on Giant's website and it looks like they use a VPP-style suspension. Specialized has the FSR, which is what I'd call a modified single-pivot suspension. Is that true?

That's as far as I've gotten. Yeah I know I'm slow.
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  #35  
Old 10-24-2008, 05:52 PM
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Caribou Sandstorm Caribou Sandstorm is offline
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Your doing great. it is a lot to digest.

My advise would be to test ride as much as you can before you buy. They all work great.

I got lucky, bought my blur, built it at REI's bike shop with my buddies help, and it fit me like a glove.

That is not always the case...

Also the Velo Swap is tomorrow. If you can, you should really carve out some time to hit it.

Here is the link.

http://www.veloswap.com/expo/why_attend_den.html

Just read bikeman's post..definately start with him and his shop, I bet he has something within your budget and will break it all down for you...Where is his shop? I need to check it out.
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  #36  
Old 10-24-2008, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveInDenver View Post
Single pivots and platform shocks may be old and band-aid fixes, but someone should tell that to Cannondale-Monavie guys riding Scapel and Rush frames out at Moab. Bart Gillespie is one friggin' fast S.O.B. Also Josh Tostado won this year solo on a Superlight with Tinker close in second on his Scapel. There's a reason they are still hanging around, simple, light, royalty free... The newer stuff has it's advantages, but enough people still like the bike equivalent of manual trannys and carbs. Me, I like EFI trucks and VPP bikes, but that's not for everyone.
It's not about the bike. I've seen dudes rip people on their 5k bikes riding huffys.

When I was in a shop every once in a while we'd take out a bike like an old trek 820 that someone left for repairs and a year later never picked up and go out and school folks on their boutique bikes.
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  #37  
Old 10-24-2008, 07:48 PM
Bikeman Bikeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subzali View Post
Okay, so help me break this down: I looked on Giant's website and it looks like they use a VPP-style suspension. Specialized has the FSR, which is what I'd call a modified single-pivot suspension. Is that true?

That's as far as I've gotten. Yeah I know I'm slow.
The Giant is not considered VPP-style by the experts, the upper and lower links travel parallel while the VPP links travel in opposite directions, no a big deal.

The FSR is a four-bar link. It does very well, but is not the most efficient. They use the brain shock (with an inertia valve) as a band-aid fix.
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1997 FZJ80, White, Locked, deflared, 5.29'd, 4-5" lift, Fox's, DC shafts F/R, 35" AT's, Metal Tech front bumper w/ winch, custom tube rear bumper, SROR sliders, IPOR skid, Custom exhaust, Snorkel, Eezi-Awn 1600, Mark's Speedo Box.

2008 Subaru WRX Wagon, mods and lifted on 27's

2001 Honda XR400 with goodies
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  #38  
Old 10-24-2008, 07:54 PM
Bikeman Bikeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveInDenver View Post
Single pivots and platform shocks may be old and band-aid fixes, but someone should tell that to Cannondale-Monavie guys riding Scapel and Rush frames out at Moab. Bart Gillespie is one friggin' fast S.O.B. Also Josh Tostado won this year solo on a Superlight with Tinker close in second on his Scapel. There's a reason they are still hanging around, simple, light, royalty free... The newer stuff has it's advantages, but enough people still like the bike equivalent of manual trannys and carbs. Me, I like EFI trucks and VPP bikes, but that's not for everyone.
Remember when the Fifth-Element shocks came out? They were always blowing, esp. the Manitou-licensed versions. They rely too much in compression damping to stop any bobbing, and then lose small-bump sensitivity. Just like premium shocks for off-road vehicle applications, let the spring do the compression. Giant does not rely on shock technology to make their design work so well. Also, single pivots wear faster, due to the load not being spread out among multiple pivots, as you prolly know. I still can't get over folks spending big $$$ on Santa Cruz Superlites when all they could do is try a DW-Link bike, Giant, VPP, Ellsworth, etc. and see the difference.

What it boils down to is, people need to ride. Period. Anything. That's why I have never been on an MTB forum ever. Never will.

There is a reason why I still have my 1982 Mongoose Supergoose 26" wheel rigid BMX cruiser as my singlespeed...

I saw Terry tonite at the Velo Swap setup tonite-- nice to see a Crusier Head among bike geeks!
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1997 FZJ80, White, Locked, deflared, 5.29'd, 4-5" lift, Fox's, DC shafts F/R, 35" AT's, Metal Tech front bumper w/ winch, custom tube rear bumper, SROR sliders, IPOR skid, Custom exhaust, Snorkel, Eezi-Awn 1600, Mark's Speedo Box.

2008 Subaru WRX Wagon, mods and lifted on 27's

2001 Honda XR400 with goodies
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  #39  
Old 10-25-2008, 06:08 AM
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DaveInDenver DaveInDenver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesintl View Post
It's not about the bike. I've seen dudes rip people on their 5k bikes riding huffys.

When I was in a shop every once in a while we'd take out a bike like an old trek 820 that someone left for repairs and a year later never picked up and go out and school folks on their boutique bikes.
Nah, I know. Just stirring the pot. Bike Magazine is doing their Sh*tbike story this year, beating up an old Softride at races and letting major dudes ride it doing as little as possible to repair it. Turns out it's done OK at Sea Otter and letting Wade Simmons thrash it (although the plastic cartridge Judy gave up a long time ago).

Anyway, those guys get to pick whatever bike they want from Cannondale, but since Cannondale doesn't make a VPP or 4-bar suspension frame in their XC and race bikes, who knows what they would pick. They didn't pick hardtails, though. Same with Josh Tostado, as a Santa Cruz rider he could have picked the Blur XC, but he went with a Superlight. Just interesting to me. But also they don't care about maximum comfort, but rather speed and a single pivot set up stiff is pretty efficient.
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  #40  
Old 10-25-2008, 06:56 AM
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DaveInDenver DaveInDenver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikeman View Post
Remember when the Fifth-Element shocks came out? They were always blowing, esp. the Manitou-licensed versions. They rely too much in compression damping to stop any bobbing, and then lose small-bump sensitivity.
The main problem with the 5th Element as I understood it was just that they were a piece of junk, really poor workmanship and QC. A lot of them blew straight out of the box and it often wasn't the valving, but just air seals and Schrader valves.

One of the other Mudpigs (our pseudo race team, it's our 24 Hours team name) has his 2001 Superlight still. He's in the same boat as Matt, trying to figure out what bike to get to replace it. He's thinking Ellsworth, Yeti, SC, etc., just like everyone else. So in the mean time he put a Fox RP23 on it a year or so ago and he's said that the platform changes everything. He's so happy with his Superlight now that he decided to throw some money into and put a Fox F100 and new wheels on it. It's a pretty trick bike now and he's decided to ride it for a while more.

But none-the-less, suspension guys like Doug Bradbury used always say that compression damping is a band-aid to cover the real problem, which is like you say under sprung. But even he acknowledged that as travel got longer compression damping has it's place and he came up with his TPC damping. Air springs, in particular with small chambers on bike suspension, can benefit greatly from compression damping to keep from blowing through the initial travel and still getting full stroke.

Just the same way, platform valves can work fine if applied right. I'm running a Manitou Swinger 3-Way on my bike right now (came with the warranty frame) and I've been happy with it. I run the SPV just above its minimum, but I sometimes at the top of a smooth climb I will notice that it's locked out. So I guess it's doing it's job. Obviously with VPP it's really not necessary, which is why I run the SPV chamber at low pressure. But that's going on 2 years old now and hasn't given me any headaches. I will one day get the original Fox Float AVA RC that came on my Blur up to PUSH. Really, I will.

So see some of you at Veloswap. Look for big Dean and me!
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