Rising Sun Member Forums  

Go Back   Rising Sun Member Forums > Toyota 4x4 > General Tech Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:41 AM
RicardoJM's Avatar
RicardoJM RicardoJM is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Centennial, CO
Posts: 2,318
Default

Yesterday afternoon I dropped by Randy's garage to lend a hand with pulling the head from his F engine. The engine has poor compression (40 psi) in cylinder number 4. I had planned to get there at 4:00, but as it turned out the traffic kept me on the road until 4:20. When I arrived, Randy had already disconnected the radiator hoses, removed the valve cover and just finished removing the nuts from the manifold bolts. A handshake with Randy was the first order of business so the dog knew I was good people. I also took a closer look at the rear bumper Randy built and will post up some pictures in his bumper thread. The bumper really looks nice and clean.

In a couple of minutes I had my wrenching suit on and was pulling the manifolds off the block. Here is how the engine compartment looked at that time.


After removing the manifold we removed the nuts and bolts holding the valve train to the block. With the nuts and bolts off, we removed the valve train and push rods. This gave us plenty of room to use the breaker bar and impact wrench as needed to remove the head bolts. IIRC most of them came up with just the impact and those that needed the breaker were not really too much trouble. Of course there was not room for the impact wrench on the bolts furthest to the rear of the block so we used the socket wrench. Air powered tools really make this kind of work easier. I don't think I got a picture, but Randy has a coffe can (do you still call the plastic containers cans?) connected to the front bumper that holds all the nuts and bolts that were removed. This is a great system for making sure nothing goes astray. Here is the head all ready to be lifted out.


The head is heavy and two big strong guys used to lifting heavy things together could probably lift it right up and out. Randy and an are not used to lifting heavy things together so we used the engine hoist. The head only had a hook on the back side so it took a a bit of time to find the proper bolt to be used hold the chain to the front of the block. Upon sorting that out, we moved the hoist into place and found out the stinger on the bumper would only let us get in so far, and it was not quite as far as we would like. Not really a problem, we hooked up the load levler to get some additional reach. Here is the hoist in as far as it will go before it hits the stinger.


Working with Randy was great. His shop is set up well, warm and he knows his way around an engine. Throughout the process he would describe what we were doing, what we were seeing and how it related to troubleshooting the issue of low compression in cylinder 4. He also took time to answer other questions that popped into my mind as we were working and even took my picture as the head was coming out.


With the head off, we spent a time looking at the block, head and cylinders to see what their condition and operation might tell us. While we didn't find a single obvious issue telling us why compression is low in cylinder 4, it looks like getting the head re-done is an appropriate next step. Even if issue is a simple as the head gasket needing to be replaced, the head job baselines the valves. Of course, it could be there is an issue with the valves over cylinder 4, in which case the head work is really needed.

Here is the engine block with the head removed. We could see the area between cylinders 4 and 5 were really different than all the other "between cylinder areas". While the old head gasket did not show obvious signs of deterioration, replacing it will be done.



Here is a close up of cylinders 3 and 4. It is very clear that cylinder 4 was much darker than all the other cylinders. This is consistent with what would likely happen when the fuel is not fully burned, which is likely to occur in low compression cylinders.



With the head on the hoist, Randy went over it top and bottom looking for signs of an obvious burnt valve. None found on the bottom of the head. It could be the valves are all good, but the head will be taken in and gone through for good measure.



and none found on the top of the head. Even though the head is being re-done, it was good to go through the inspection and understand the condition of what is being sent in.



We also did a leak down test in cylinders 3 and 4 to see if they were holding tight to the cylinder walls. They seemed to be doing ok. If there had been something obvious, the next step would likely have been having to remove the oil pan to get a good look at the internals of the engine block. Here are the cylinders with kerosene in them.



We also took a wire brush to clean the top of the pistons and looked for cracks. There were no obvious ones that could be seen and the pistion heads looked very good.



We loaded the head into the bed of Randy's truck and it is off to the shop today. With the days work done, we jumped out of our wrenching suits and enjoyed a soda. Randy, thanks for having me over to lend a hand. I learned quite a bit and again got to see something first hand that I've wondered about.
__________________
Ricardo Maestas - Bio Page
KD0CAW
1999 LX 470
SOLD - 1971 FJ-40
TLCA #18941

Last edited by RicardoJM; 12-18-2008 at 10:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-18-2008, 12:15 PM
DaveInDenver's Avatar
DaveInDenver DaveInDenver is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Larimer County
Posts: 6,614
Default

I had a similar look between #2 and #3 on my engine (#4 is on the left of my photo), with #3 piston showing signs of incomplete combustion, too. This is an indication of failure or impending failure of the head gasket, right? I didn't have quite as much difference between cylinders as Randy and since my failure was timing related, so I didn't have any recent numbers before I tore it apart.

__________________
'91 Toyota Pickup
'09 Kawasaki KLR650
'12 Gunnar Rockhound 29

"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Air Randy's Avatar
Air Randy Air Randy is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 2,804
Default

If you look at Ricardo's 6th photo, which is the close up of the engine block, the suspicious area is between the #4 (greasy) cylinder and #5 to the right off it. Keep in mind some of the greasiness in #4 is the result of me pumping oil in through the spark plug hole as part of the compression test process.

One question that did come up: Whats the proper way these days to dispose of anti freeze? I know I can take my used oil to Checker but what does one do with the anti freeze?
__________________
Randy Rosetta KDKWX TLCA #19351 69 FJ40 "Meanie" & 1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-18-2008, 06:55 PM
corsair23's Avatar
corsair23 corsair23 is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Littleton
Posts: 8,698
Default

http://earth911.com/

I usually check here first...Bad news is for antifreeze Douglas County doesn't offer anywhere according to the site. I thought I recalled someone mentioning that some dealerships will take it? There was a thread in either Tech or Chit Chat discussing this awhile ago you might look up...

Edit:

Found a couple threads:

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/foru...ead.php?t=2590

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/foru...ead.php?t=4484
__________________
Jeff Z. (the "not quite as skinny" one)
TLCA #17037
'97 LX450 - aka "The Whale"
'97 FZJ80 Antique Sage AE #267, stock
12/74 FJ40, 2F, SM420, 4" Lift, ARBs, 33" MTRs

:

"...anything else i can do for you guys, how about i wash your car or mow your lawn while you figure out your firewall system? I am now boarderline insane/unibomber." Kipper

"That assumes I'm even capable of pulling and stabbing..." Jacket

"I really like having a detachable unit." Beater
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-20-2008, 03:03 PM
Air Randy's Avatar
Air Randy Air Randy is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 2,804
Default Latest Update

I took the cylinder head to Gunn Automotive on S. Federal. They said the valves all needed cleaned up but nothing bad enough to account for the low compression on #4. The valve guides were OK too but they did replace all of the springs and keepers. They did say there was a low spot on the head that corresponded with the suspicious area on the head gasket. They felt fairly confident it was a blown head gasket and of course they milled the head nice & flat.

I decided to heck with it, and went ahead and had Gunn get piston rings, rod bearings and a head gasket for me. They were able to get everything for me from Engine Performance Warehouse (955 Decatur - approx 9th & Federal) at the same prices I would have paid from one of the mail order houses. And it's all name brand stuff, Feldpro, TRW, etc. They sold it to me for cost plus a very smal markup. Very nice folks and they did a great job, answered all of my questions, etc. So there is another source for F engine parts in town even if Toyota doesn't have it anymore.

I Gooled "anti-freeze recycling Dnever" and found several places that will take used abti-freeze free since they clean it up and re-sell it. Also turns out that my son-in-law, who manages a Big O store, will take it off my hands too.

I'll let you know how the re-ring job turns out, starting this evening.
__________________
Randy Rosetta KDKWX TLCA #19351 69 FJ40 "Meanie" & 1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-20-2008, 08:12 PM
RicardoJM's Avatar
RicardoJM RicardoJM is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Centennial, CO
Posts: 2,318
Default

That is good news Randy. Sounds like you are well on the way to the engine being better than it was before and be up in time for January 3rd.

I was at Burt today to pick up an oil filter and they took my old anti-freeze so it can get recycled.
__________________
Ricardo Maestas - Bio Page
KD0CAW
1999 LX 470
SOLD - 1971 FJ-40
TLCA #18941
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-20-2008, 08:51 PM
Air Randy's Avatar
Air Randy Air Randy is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 2,804
Default

OK, I popped #4 out and the rings were not broken, piston looks OK, etc. So I'm 99.9% certain it was a blown head gasket.
__________________
Randy Rosetta KDKWX TLCA #19351 69 FJ40 "Meanie" & 1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-21-2008, 09:09 AM
Red_Chili's Avatar
Red_Chili Red_Chili is offline
Hard Core 4+
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Littleton CO
Posts: 8,409
Default

Ya know, if you are going to all the trouble to replace rings and bearings, it ain't THAT much more work to do the whole enchilada (rebore first over, or at least hone, depending on ridging).

Be double triple sure to check your block deck for absolute flatness. No shortcuts here.
__________________
-Bill Morgan
Heb Dduw, heb ddim; Duw a digon
Abnormally aspirated
KDRCH
Bio Page
I'm that gun-totin', farm-raised, evangelical, pro-environment, OHV ridin'/drivin', Southern civil rights pro-labor Liberal yo' momma told you couldn't possibly exist.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-21-2008, 11:09 AM
Air Randy's Avatar
Air Randy Air Randy is offline
Rising Sun Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 2,804
Default

I already de-ridged and am definitely honing
__________________
Randy Rosetta KDKWX TLCA #19351 69 FJ40 "Meanie" & 1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Rzeppa's Avatar
Rzeppa Rzeppa is offline
Cruise Moab Co-Chairman
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kittredge CO, USA
Posts: 5,381
Default

From the photos, #4 and #5 were definitely talking to each other. Thanks for the tip on where to get parts. SOR sells them, but they are pricey.

Are you doing main bearings also or just the rod bearings? Obviously mains are a lot more work, normally yanking the whole engine, whereas the rods can be done in-situ.
__________________
Jeff Zepp
Kittredge CO USA
1971 & 1976 FJ40s, 1978 FJ45, 1987 FJ60
Rising Sun 4WD Club, TLCA #4063
http://american3dprinting.net/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.