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  #21  
Old 12-18-2008, 08:28 AM
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Just about anyplace in Western Europe

...

"Welcome to Walmart".
Good points all. Supports (echos) what the first linked article was saying too.
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2008, 08:34 AM
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Exactly my point in the OP. However, I do not see a completely free market as a good thing. YMMV.
But how would be know? Our markets haven't been unimpeded since the middle of the 19th century.
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I dunno, access to capital allows productive industries to multiply the value of the investment over the cost of access to it. That is capitalism at work, not a bad thing but a very good thing IMHO. Of course, it can go very badly, and because it is an interrrelated system it can go very badly for reasons outside that particular industry. That is the 'free' part of the (relatively) free market. It is not primarily due to government intervention (but of course government intervention can affect it for good or ill - usually, it seems, for ill, though I would not say necessarily so).
Easy access to capital is essential to the economy. That capital needs to be available with terms that the economy can afford. By some calculations half the cost of everything is eaten up by the usury paid on the money itself. Money needs to be a mechanism for exchange within the economy, not have a value in and of itself beyond its natural commodity price.

There are several books that are much better at explanation than I could ever be, I really encourage people to look into it and draw some conclusions. The way it's told to us in grade school and on the TV is at it's very core propaganda. We're being fed a revisionist and sanitized version of it all, the real truth is far more complex than a few pages in history books.

Our money and the way it's created is IMVVVHO the underlying reason that our country is grinding to a halt. Certainly a non-trivial part of it is the loss of responsibility (both personal and societal) and the satisfaction of working hard to get your own part of the pie. Not to mention the nanny state that protects us from cradle to grave and how it costs us our liberty and freedom. But all of that is part and symptom of the fundamental problem.

More easily accessed:
What Has Government Done With Our Money? - Murray Rothbard
Web of Debt - Ellen Brown
The Case Against the Fed - Rothbard
Introduction to Austrian Economics - Thomas Taylor
Mises and Austrian Economics - Dr. Ron Paul

More academic tomes:
The Theory of Money and Credit - Ludwig von Mises
Monetary Theory and the Trade Cycle - F.A. Hayek
Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles - Jesus Huerta de Soto
The Road to Serfdom - Hayek
The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality - von Mises
Essentials of Economics - Faustino Ballve

How about some competing view of history and politics:
America's Great Depression - Rothbard
Lincoln Unmasked - Thomas Dilorenzo
The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History - Thomas Woods
The Costs of War - John Denson (this is a collection of essays)
Socialism - von Mises
Human Action - von Mises
As We Go Marching - John Flynn
The Roosevelt Myth - Flynn
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2008, 08:56 AM
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But how would we know? Our markets haven't been unimpeded since the middle of the 19th century.
That is how I would know. History.
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Easy access to capital is essential to the economy. That capital needs to be available with terms that the economy can afford.
But it won't be available except with terms that make it attractive to invest, and that compensate for risk.

IMHO your book list shows those all beating the same drum.
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2008, 09:02 AM
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But I still sense something of tin foil in some of your views of the Fed et.al. I've been wrong before, but... I dunno...
I know you're just poking fun, but these views are most definitely not fundamentally crack pot.

Look up the biographies of these men. They are intelligent, accomplished people.

The fundamental developers of the Austro-libertarian school of economics:
Ludwig von Mises
Carl Menger
F.A. Hayek
Murray Rothbard
Frank Fetter
Henry Hazlitt
Frederic Bastiat
Gottfried Haberler

Modern day teachers of it: http://www.mises.org/faculty.aspx

These people teach at places like Loyola, Univ of Missouri, Auburn, Univ of Paris, NC State, West Point, Univ of Kansas, UVA, Northwestern, Ohio State. Not exactly slouch schools. Those are just people who are supported by the von Mises Institute, there are more who believe in the theories set forth by the Austrian economics of the 1900-1930 era. There are key threads in most of the beliefs within the Austria School. Not all believe the Fed needs to be abolished, some think it needs to be reigned in (even Thomas Jefferson recognized the danger of a private money issuing organization and why the Constitution states that is supposed to be a function of government). I see the value in keeping the organization separate from Congress when you think about the damage politicians could do with free reign over monetary policy. I happen to agree with JFK's position that the money loaned to the government must be interest free (see Executive Order 11,110). The interest on the money and debt is what is crippling the economy.
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Last edited by DaveInDenver; 12-18-2008 at 09:23 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-18-2008, 09:19 AM
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That is how I would know. History.
Times are different now than 1780 or 1840, right? The damage from the Civil War & Reconstruction, of the Guilded Age and the various attempts at central banking I think make the experiment of heavily intervened markets no better for society and in many ways worse. We try to fix problems created by earlier central banks with a more powerful central bank. It never solves anything and creates more problems. We try to fix problems with laws that not only don't fix the problem but create scores of others. This is just too much to cover in 5 sentences on a forum, which is why I'm presenting the titles that I've read and am reading to are forming that conclusion. I don't suggest you take my word for it, I just present the scholarship and research for others to look into.
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But it won't be available except with terms that make it attractive to invest, and that compensate for risk.

IMHO your book list shows those all beating the same drum.
Yes, there are plenty of references to Keynesian economics. Do you want listings for those? I thought the point of a discussion was to present my side and you counter with opposition. I believe in fundamentally unimpeded (from politics, economic meddling, the whole gamut) markets and you appear not to agree. So give me a list of books that you feel show me how Fed monetary policy since 1913 has been this great stabilizing force that has delivered us from recession and depression. It's protected us from the evil predatory ways of big business and vulture capitalism, make government more efficient and benevolent. Seems to me that the Fed has sure made the families of J.P. Morgan and J.D. Rockefeller and their banks and the IMF much better off and done nothing but grow the government into a monster. But we've driven manufacturing off shore, multiplied the number of people who rely on state support, driven up the cost of staples of living and created this unsustainable society that must always be driven to consume more and more to keep the game moving.
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Last edited by DaveInDenver; 12-18-2008 at 10:37 AM.
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  #26  
Old 12-18-2008, 09:30 AM
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you guys should get a room.....
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2008, 10:07 AM
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Geez. The shortcomings of second-sourcing. Now I have to go friggen read "The Wealth of Nations". Not ever heard these aspects of Adam Smith emphasized. Usually folks rely on him for his apparent laissez-faire statements. It would appear he would fall in line with the OP.
I should also say that I can see merit in the Milton Friedman and George Stigler frame of reference, the Chicago School (maybe because of Hayek, I dunno). Their views are very critical of the idea of the natural business cycle and they are most definitely not Misesian (despite generally being libertarian). But even Friedman believed the Fed needed to go.

PS: Checking out the book you linked, Good Capitalism, Bad Capitalism. Hoping we get bonuses this year.
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Last edited by DaveInDenver; 12-18-2008 at 10:42 AM.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:48 AM
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you guys should get a room.....
What are you doing in our room??!?
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:53 AM
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What are you doing in our room??!?
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:55 AM
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So give me a list of books that you feel show me how Fed monetary policy since 1913 has been this great stabilizing force that has delivered us from recession and depression. It's protected us from the evil predatory ways of big business and vulture capitalism, make government more efficient and benevolent. Seems to me that the Fed has sure made the families of J.P. Morgan and J.D. Rockefeller and their banks and the IMF much better off and done nothing but grow the government into a monster. But we've driven manufacturing off shore, multiplied the number of people who rely on state support, driven up the cost of staples of living and created this unsustainable society that must always be driven to consume more and more to keep the game moving.
Ain't got a list. Nor, suddenly, the time; software releases today...
Not sure I care for duelling booklists. Kinda like footnote warfare. Not claiming they have delivered us from recessions or a depression (not that they should, or even could), but sure as heck they have moderated.

I dunno, seems like views outside the main stream have the burden of proof. In Executive Summary form, puh-leeeeeze! (which you have mostly done...). Perspicuity and elegance and all that rot.

I just don't see how the Fed could possibly be responsible for all the evils you decry. But I also don't see, at a macro level, that today's economy is fundamentally different from what it was 100 years ago (details, players, weighting of sectors, sure. Internationalization, sure). On a more granular level however, the buying power of the average American is ten times what it was then, which would seem to undermine your thesis.
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